Oral History Interview with Sabrine Hammad
Item
CUNY
DIGITALHISTORYARCHIVE
A project of the Professional Staff Congress Archives Committee
Interview with Sabrine Hammad
Interviewed by Amaka Okechukwu
November 15, 2019
New York, NY
[Start of recorded material at 00:00]
Amaka Okechukwu: All right, so can you just state -- this is just the basic identification questions -- if you
could just state your name.
Sabrine Hammad: Sabrine Hammad.
Amaka: And your age?
Sabrine: Thirty-six.
Amaka: And how do you racially identify?
Sabrine: As a Palestinian American.
Amaka: Okay, and how do you identify your gender?
Sabrine: Female.
Amaka: And how do you identify your sexual orientation?
Sabrine: I never do. (laughter)
Amaka: Okay, that’s cool. And are you -- what is your marital status, and do you have children?
Sabrine: Yes, I’m married, and I have two children, a boy and a girl.
Amaka: Okay, great. So can you speak to where you were born and raised? You know, just generally growing up,
like location-wise and both kind of your immediate household as well as, you know, your surroundings --
neighborhoods, schools, those sort of things.
Sabrine: For sure. I was actually born during the civil war in Lebanon, and my parents moved to the United States
when I was a year and two months old, to Brooklyn. And I -- they lived in Park Slope for maybe one or two years,
or -- I don’t know if it was Gowanus or Park Slope back then. But I grew -- I started my elementary school years in
Sunset Park, Brooklyn, which at that time was a large immigrant, Puerto Rican, like specifically Puerto Rican --
larger Latino community, but very specifically Puerto Rican community. And I went to school -- I went to my
elementary school there, and then at junior high school age, my parents moved to Staten Island, New York, which
was a very different community, white community. And so -- and that’s where they live. That’s where they still live
now. | grew up in Sunset -- I consider myself having grown up -- that I grew up in Sunset Park, Brooklyn.
Amaka: Okay. How would you, you know, describe I guess the environments in regards to, you know, school.
Like, is there anything specific that you remember about, like, high school or middle school in regards to, like, race
and class? Like, you’ve mentioned that, you know, moving from, you know, a very Puerto Rican neighborhood to a
very white neighborhood, was that --
Sabrine: Very conflicting.
Amaka: Yeah. How was that experience, and do you remember it?
Sabrine: It was rough. It was very rough. Also, I grew up in Sunset Park, Brooklyn, and I really, even at Sunset
Park, Brooklyn, identified, was identified as “other” because my parents were new immigrants and were very
strongly attached to their cultural roots and identity, and they were very different than what was the norm in my
neighborhood then. But I didn’t feel -- I, I knew that I was different, but I didn’t necessarily feel attacked for it,
because I grew up there, it’s different. When I came into Staten Island, a Palestinian, and I moved into a
neighborhood -- I started going to school with a lot of children that had heard a lot of horror stories about
Palestinians over the years, and | definitely was attacked for that, and that was rough. I’ve told my parents, “Why
would you move us to Staten Island? You know we’re Palestinian. That’s not a good move.” But (laughs) at that
time, like, they didn’t know the dynamic that happened in the school. For sure, yeah.
Amaka: Is there a -- is there a Palestinian community in New York, and if so, are your -- you know, was your family
at all connected to that?
Sabrine: There is. There is a Palestinian community. My family was connected to it to an extent. My father was a
Palestinian freedom fighter when, when he was coming up, and that’s actually why I was born in Lebanon; that’s
why he was there with my mom and two older sisters. So he had some political connections, and he had his own
connections, but in all honesty, we were raised a little more insular from the larger community in terms of the
children. And it wasn’t until we were older -- much older -- that we became active in the Palestinian community.
My first Arab friends from school -- when I had a large number of Arab friends -- were in college. [00:05:00] And,
and since then, when | -- after I got married, I originally moved to Bay Ridge, Brooklyn, which if you know about
Brooklyn, that’s the Arab -- that’s definitely like the Arab-concentrated neighborhood. We have two in New York.
There’s Astoria, Queens, and Bay Ridge, Brooklyn. Astoria has a lot of North Africans and Egyptians. I’m just
giving you this history --
Amaka: Yeah, this is helpful.
Sabrine: And Brooklyn, we -- the Arabs that originally immigrated to the United States in the 1800s and early
1900s, a lot of them were Lebanese and Syrian, a lot of them were Christian. They moved to downtown Brooklyn,
and then in the ’70s they started moving up towards the Bay Ridge. And now that’s where you have a lot of
Lebanese, Syrian, the Yemenese and Palestinian. And now there’s more Egyptians there too, but there is kind of that
difference between, like, the Mediterranean countries, the Fertile Crescent, in Brooklyn, and then North African in
Queens.
Amaka: Okay. Could you -- I mean, you already mentioned that your, you know, your father was a freedom fighter
in Palestine. Can you speak more to, you know, your parents politically, like their political identification and
growing up, like, how would you describe them politically, and how was your household politically?
Sabrine: My household, | definitely would say Palestinian nationalists growing up, growing up. For my -- and that,
that was because of my dad. I, I have had -- the interview -- I’ve interviewed with Suzy Subways -- I’m sure you’ve
spoken to her --
Amaka: Yeah.
Sabrine: -- (inaudible) Suzy, and with Irini Neofotistos SLAM Herstory Project, and I’ve told them about how my
mom, like, sabotaged our political involvement because she was so worried. So she’s very consciously and
purposefully not political, but my father was definitely very strong nationalist. I would say in some areas even
radical, and (inaudible) definitely not all. He had a lot of traditional ideology as well. But we grew up in a political
household. I’m one of five, and my two older sisters were very active in, in politics as well in those years, the
SLAM years, and they were both involved with SLAM as well.
Amaka: Okay, all right.
Sabrine: Did that answer your question?
Amaka: Yeah, it does, it does. And I --
Sabrine: Okay. If 1 don’t answer your question, please tell me, Amaka --
Amaka: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sabrine: -- because I can -- yeah. (laughs)
Amaka: No, you’re answering your -- absolutely. And, you know, I’m in, in contact with Suzy and I’ve, you know,
read a lot of the interviews that she’s posted, so, you know, I’m also not going to have you necessarily repeat
yourself if you’ve spoken to specific things in different places, so.
Sabrine: No, for sure. No, of course. I’m happy to -- whatever’s going to make your interview -- give you the best
information you need for your dissertation.
Amaka: Okay. Well, thank you very much. All right, so -- so growing up, what did your parents do? Like, what
was their occupations and -- yeah. What were their occupations?
Sabrine: My father was actually very typical Arab immigrant shopkeeper or owner. He, he -- I don’t know -- you’re
-- you know right now (inaudible) California?
Amaka: No. I’m in Brooklyn. I live in Crown Heights.
Sabrine: Oh, you’re in Brooklyn?
Amaka: Yeah.
Sabrine: (inaudible). So you know that very typical Arab grocery store owner in all of the lower-income
neighborhoods. Have you seen that?
Amaka: Yeah.
Sabrine: I don’t know if they’re in Crown -- I don’t -- well, Crown isn’t a very lower-income -- you have beautiful
houses in Crown Heights, actually. (laughs)
Amaka: Yeah. I mean, it’s, it’s mixed, and you know, Crown Heights has an interesting dynamic because a lot of it
is Hassidic, so there’s just -- there’s an interesting just dynamic with that happening.
Sabrine: Yeah.
Amaka: But, you know, I lived -- I’ve lived in like Clinton Hill, on the border of Bed-Stuy. Like, I -- you know, I, I
have an understanding of that, yeah.
Sabrine: He had like that very typical, like, when you go into areas and you have like the Arab grocery store. That
was my dad. He owned -- he, he worked -- when he first came, he worked -- he had that story where he did work
like seven days a week for like 16 hours a day, almost no money, in supermarkets -- which is really back-breaking
work. It’s one of like the hardest -- as an adult, I see that -- it’s one of the harder physical jobs to do stock and things
like that. And then, you know, he started just to own -- he was in partnerships with [00:10:00] supermarkets, and
then I -- my whole high school years, he had a, a grocery store on Flatbush Avenue. So I spent every weekend and
all the summer, all my summers, first in Hollis, Queens, which is why I have an affinity for like old-school
(inaudible) hip-hop, (laughter) and then in -- and then in Flatbush, which is why I have an affinity for dance hall.
It’s hilarious. My music taste is such a study in (laughter) all the phases of my life. (laughter)
Amaka: that’s what’s up.
Sabrine: Yeah.
Amaka: Okay. And then -- okay. So your father worked in a store. Did your mother work, or -- did she also work
in the store?
Sabrine: My mom was a housewife.
Amaka: Okay, mm-hmm.
Sabrine: And she refused at any point to ever -- like, while other immigrant women in the ’90s and early 2000s,
while my classmates, their moms were working, my mom just believed that it is not her role; she should not ever
have to work. It’s so purposeful. She refused. She didn’t like even go visit my dad in the store, just in case he’d ask
her to do something. (laughter) She was really serious. She was like, “That is your job. I raise five children.”
Amaka: (laughs) That’s real.
Sabrine: Yeah.
Amaka: Okay. So did you -- which -- did you go straight into college after high school or did you take time off, or?
Sabrine: No, I went straight to college.
Amaka: Okay. So did you -- you attended Hunter?
Sabrine: I did. (inaudible) Hunter (inaudible).
Amaka: Okay. What years were you at Hunter?
Sabrine: From 1995 to 1999 as a student, but then I worked in the USG the SLAM offices in the year 2000. And
then I went away 2000 to two thousand-- yeah, from 1999 to 2000, and I went away, I was overseas for a few years,
but when I came back, I worked in the SLAM offices for one more year.
Amaka: Okay. Okay. Why did you choose Hunter out of all of the cuny schools?
Sabrine: Because my two sisters were there. And it was in Manhattan. I was in Staten Island. My other option was
CSL, the College of Staten Island, and I -- I just wanted to get off of Staten Island. Have you been to Staten Island?
I didn’t know that you -- I just told you my whole Brooklyn/Queens story thinking you were from California. I
don’t know why I thought that.
Amaka: I am, I am -- I am from California.
Sabrine: Oh, okay. (laughs)
Amaka: Yeah, I’m from Oakland, but I’ve lived in New York for like six years now, so I’ve lived in Brooklyn.
Sabrine: Have you ever been to Staten Island?
Amaka: Very briefly. Like, I haven’t spent much time there.
Sabrine: Yeah. Well, just from you being there, could you tell why I was trying to run off the island?
Amaka: Yeah. No, it’s very white, it’s very kind of suburban and -- yeah.
Sabrine: I was like (inaudible). It was horrible.
Amaka: Okay. What was your -- what was your major? What did -- what did you major in?
Sabrine: I majored in history and education.
Amaka: Okay. And by the time that you got to college, | mean, would you say that you were politicized in a
particular way? I mean, how would you describe yourself politically at the time at which you entered college?
Sabrine: I was always, even among -- even in high school, when I was involved with, like, Amnesty International
and the human rights group and the animal -- against animal testing group -- | always was politically involved, but I
always was so much more left-leaning or radical than any one of my peers. So I always felt like I had a political
understanding because of my family, who my dad was, my older sisters, but I always felt that the political -- the
political activist structure that was put in place wasn’t something that necessarily represented me 100 percent. I
always felt so much more than that. So I would definitely say when | entered college I had already come in with,
like, my foot in, in the door.
Amaka: Okay.
Sabrine: Because of -- yeah.
Amaka: Do you remember any professors or, like, significant courses that you took while you were at Hunter?
Sabrine: Yes. I had -- do you mean that shaped my current political ideology --
Amaka: Yeah.
Sabrine: -- or do you just mean, like -- okay. So I had Professor Robert [G. Shah?], who is a -- he was an English
professor and also part of Asian American Studies [00:15:00] department, who I took -- initially I took just English
with him. I think it was like the second course of English that we take at CUNY. But then I, I followed him -- I was
such a fan, I took I think like two or three more classes with him. (inaudible) in the asian american studies
department. And that was all Asian American literature after that. He was excellent and very -- I think he was the
first professor or the person who had like an academic (inaudible) -- had a -- he was definitely political and
definitely pushed for additional, you know, broader understanding Asian American studies and the role of Asian
Americans in the community, but he was the first person that I saw, like, do it academically. And then I’m sure if
you ask other people that we had Professor [Casmali?], and that was Puerto Rican Studies. And anyone mentions
him, if you ask them this question; he was such a big hit. And I loved him.
Amaka: Yeah, I’ve had a few people mention him. Definitely.
Sabrine: He was so cute. He was -- (laughter) He -- had this little cult following. It’s funny. I know that other
people (inaudible) stuff, but I’m all about, like, essentially freedom in (inaudible).
Amaka: Yeah, no, | appreciate it. I love all the details. I love -- it makes -- it provides a fuller picture for me.
Sabrine: Yeah, like why a lot of people started taking Professor Casmali. They weren’t all interested in black,
Puerto Rican literature, but they were like, I’m interested in Professor Casmali. (laughter) And he was -- he was
great. But you know, just the fact that there were black and Puerto Rican literature classes at Hunter meant so much,
I think, for people that historically have felt disenfranchised. I’ve never identified myself as black or Puerto Rican,
you know -- I mean, in a larger context of like just disenfranchised, yeah. But for me, I still felt definitely an affinity
to that department and felt like -- there’s -- you know, there was definitely no Arab American Studies department at
Hunter, and then the BLCR was kind of the next place that I could go to to find at least some affirmation within the
school. So he was -- he was excellent, and he helped -- he helped when Professor [Carver?] in sociology -- I think
he was in sociology -- he was -- he was great. And -- oh my God. There’s one more professor. She was amazing,
and I’m so sad I can’t remember her name right now. And actually, Irini, I tried to mention in her Irini’s interview as
well, and I forgot her name. And what’s funny is she’s the only person that’s like on my Facebook of all those
professors.
Amaka: Oh.
Sabrine: That breaks my heart. I got to look it up.
Amaka: Well, if you remember -- I mean, whenever you remember it, you can always, like, email it to me or
something. You know what I’m saying?
Sabrine: For sure.
Amaka: That’s cool.
Sabrine: That’s what I’m gonna do.
Amaka: Okay. So at the time, you know, you entered, °95, can you describe, like, the political -- what you
remember about the political climate generally in New York at the time?
Sabrine: For me, I was 18 years old, so I didn’t know a lot of the big picture, but I really felt -- 1 had come in 1995
right off of that humongous rally that CUNY Coalition Against the Cuts had put together at city hall, where it was --
Amaka: Right.
Sabrine: -- and it was really -- I came there in the fall after a spring of intense globalization and activity and
demonstration and protests against the cut to open admissions and remedial education and the increase in -- the cuts
in financial aid. So I came in after that gauntlet was thrown, so to say, and as an 18-year-old, I felt like I was living
in the end of times. I’m like, oh man, this is crazy. (laughter) Yeah. That’s like 100 percent true. It felt very strong
and it felt -- I thought this is when things would change, you know. Like, okay, we got this, we'll do this, this is
what’s going to happen now in the course of the world. You know, this our, like, 1958 before 1959 in Cuba
(laughter) or -- that’s what it felt like.
Amaka: Okay. in Hunter -- you know, clearly, I guess, [00:20:00] coming off of the big rally and, you know, at city
hall, and just generally, I guess, Hunter must have been just bustling with political activity. So can you describe,
like, you know, how the political climate was at Hunter when you entered, just in terms of different organizations
and, like, you know, just general kind of student activity?
Sabrine: If you’re ever been to Hunter -- do you -- if -- it’s a few buildings connected by, like, walkways.
Amaka: Right, yeah. I’ve been there.
Sabrine: And yes, so I was -- when I was talking to Irini, I was talking about how we were older than the hallways.
There were always -- those -- you would walk from Hunter West, where there was tables, you know, where you
signed a petition for Mumia Abu-Jamal, to get him off the death penalty, and then you would walk, and then the
Palestinian Club which I was part of had a table that was talking -- like, against the occupation, against what was
going on in Palestine. And then, like, right next to it was the (inaudible), which is (inaudible), but they would have
like some postcards you could send to the governor for some reason, anyway. So that -- and that was every day, all
day every day. And then once slam came on the scene, we were always out there. But it wasn’t even just slam. The
women’s studies -- like, there were feminist groups at Hunter, there were other people of color groups at Hunter.
The year that I was -- my freshman year, a lot of the folks that had been in the Black Student Union and had been
part of that cuny coalition against the cuts, part of that big push, they had just graduated right before I came. Or,
like, a lot of them were taking like a semester off. So I remember -- I remember that first year some folks trying to
rebuild the Black Student Union. You know. I don’t know if (inaudible), he was -- he was part of that the first year.
So yeah, there were always folks in the hall. I felt like Hunter -- you know, it was just busting at the seams, and
always -- something was always going on. There was always a poetry reading or a movie being shown. Like, there
were all these activities all around the school, and they were just actually literally in the hallway -- in the hallways.
You’re always bumping into one club or another.
Amaka: Okay. How do you -- like, how did SLAM come to be in regards to your -- I mean, I don’t -- you may have
not -- I don’t know at what point in time you joined SLAM, if it was at the beginning or at what stage, but how --
you know, what is -- you know, how would you speak to kind of the beginning of SLAM?
Sabrine: I think that when, when I first entered -- when I first entered as a freshman in the fall of 1995, we hadn’t
established SLAM as the Student Liberation Action Movement yet. We were still -- people who were interested in
doing that work against all of the [current opportunities?], the various attacks, were still working in terms of part of
CUNY Coalition Against the Cuts, but I can’t actually -- I don’t think there was another name that we were using
specifically. But I came in and | started working with [those?] folks right away. At that time there was [Kim
Wade?], who actually? like, took me under her wing, and Jed Brandt and Christopher Gunderson -- we used to call
him Chris Day -- and Sandra Barros, Lenina Nadal. My sister, Suheir Hammad, was in -- at Hunter -- (inaudible)
had left, but she was still around doing things. My sister Suzan Hammad was still around doing things. So I came
in already doing that work. It’s like I came in also -- (inaudible) they didn’t have a space, but like the Palestinian
Club had a space on campus and historically had been very active and vocal politically, and I came in to Hunter,
like, my first day I had lunch there. It was just -- I knew where I was going, and that was the same with my
involvement with SLAM. So I -- yeah. It was very organic. I just -- my sisters’ friends were all of these people, so
when I came, they all wanted to look out for me and, you know, I was talking to them, I had met a lot of them before
or had heard a lot about a lot of them before. And a lot of them were in spaces that were already in the Thomas
Hunter building, like Jed and Christopher Day, and [Akif?] -- I think [Akif Olell?] was there for my freshman year
when the Spheric offices, which were -- [00:25:00] have you heard of Spheric? Have they told you?
Amaka: Yes. I’ve heard of it, and I’ve -- you know, I’ve talked to folks who’ve mentioned it. Kazembe talked
about it, and -- I haven’t interviewed Jed yet, but we’ve had conversations about it, so yeah.
Sabrine: Great. So Spheric offices is -- if I could like explain to you -- that time a community, 18 years old, it was
literally just like I was going into -- you know in Alice in Wonderland when she looks and sees the cat?
Amaka: Yeah. (laughter)
Sabrine: That’s like what it was -- what it was for me. You know, they’re like all older than me. Even some of them
only by a year or two, but some of them were a lot older than me. And I would just go in there and just shut up and
listen. Just listen to everything that people were talking about. And I didn’t come into college knowing -- I did
know about Mumia, but like a lot -- like, about the MOVE Organization or -- a lot of the more radical things I, I
learned about my first year, was a very sharp political education, was in the Spheric offices. So yeah. And I would
just sit there and -- you know, and then when we started -- like, (inaudible) organizing, I would do stuff. I would be
giving out flyers, all of that good stuff.
Amaka: Okay. Why -- I mean, was it just part of the fact that you were -- you know, like you had older siblings
who were there, and you were just kind of swept up in the political energy, in terms of why you joined SLAM? I
mean, you already mentioned that you were part of the Palestinian Club as well. So I guess my question is, you
know, why, why join SLAM?
Sabrine: I have to tell you, I didn’t feel like I joined it, I felt like it was -- because, because the name didn’t come out
until after I was already a part of it --
Amaka: Right, right, right.
Sabrine: -- I didn’t feel like it was -- I felt like this was a group of people that I was already working with. I can
speak to why I started working with them, and it’s really because I really believed in what we were fighting about.
Amaka: Right.
Sabrine: I spoke earlier about how even when | was in high school and did some of the political things, I felt that
they didn’t speak, to the extent that I wanted it, self-determination and [humanization?]. That’s how I would really
describe my politics. I just believe 100 percent in self-determination. That’s it. Like, I don’t have a nationalism
behind it or -- I just -- everybody determine for yourself. And I never felt that that was addressed in any other realm
until I started meeting people from what later then became SLAM. But it wasn’t SLAM when I started.
Amaka: Right.
Sabrine: You know? But -- yeah. And my sisters, I definitely -- 1, you know, was interested, and because my sisters
were, were there, but the truth is, I, I was the one -- when | actually was doing the most work with SLAM, neither of
them were necessarily involved with SLAM the organization by that time. So definitely my family history had a lot
to do with it, but I also just believed very strongly. I created my own path and my own relationships and was doing
that work because | personally felt very strongly about it.
Amaka: Okay. Between -- so you came in in the fall of ’95, and SLAM really comes out, what, spring °96? So
what was the -- could you talk about it, you know, being there before it was SLAM, what was that process for it to
get to, you know, a name and, you know, somewhat of a structure? Do you remember anything at all about kind of
that process of, you know, for this kind of informal group formally becoming SLAM?
Sabrine: I think it was about running for the -- running for the student government slate. At Hunter, even before I
came, there was this push, I was feeling -- this was 1993, as far as I know -- for people to get into student
government because they recognized that’s where the resources were.
Amaka: Right.
Sabrine: And it was never thought before to take over the entire student government and run under this very
politically radical slate. But the push came when there was a lack of leadership. I think that the students that were
in the student government, going into the student government in 1996, that there was a lot of rumor about them, and
maybe some of them had been found doing improper things with some money, or --I don’t want to misspeak on that,
but I’m almost 95 percent sure that there was [00:30:00] a situation around with that. And people just saw the
potential of having the space and having access to that funding and access to all of the communication abilities that
come. And that’s what actually took us from just being this group around, you know, campus, loosely formatted
group, formulated group, into something that can have a constitution and something that’s going to have bylaws, and
we’re going to actually have a mission of being, like a women of color -- you know, a multicultural organization, but
that was specifically women of color led.
Amaka: Right.
Sabrine: So that was it. And just for honesty, I wasn’t necessarily part of all those conversations. At that point I was
very involved and I was part and privy to some of them, but I feel like I -- you know, I joked, the last interview I
gave, you know, when Irini asked me, like, why student government, and I was like, “Why? Why student
government, Jed? You just told me about it.” Like that decision was very simply made without me there. I
completely supported it once the decision was made, and was happy to be behind it, and campaigned viciously, you
know, as much as I possibly could, but, you know, in just all honesty, I -- that -- this is a position -- this isn’t -- I
wasn’t in the room for.
Amaka: Okay. How, how would you describe the structure of SLAM? I mean, you know, on one hand you have
SLAM, you know, in student government, so that, you know, in some ways, that’s, you know, the structure is, is
there. But, you know, I guess, you know, there were also just kind of, you know, a general membership as well. So
how would you describe the structure? And I guess both, like, formally and informally. Because, you know, some
organizations will have, like, a core of people that are doing a lot of stuff and then, you know, other folks that may
be in and out. How would you describe SLAM as, you know, as a structure? Structurally, how would you describe
it?
Sabrine: Actually, the way that you just described it. We did, we had a core -- oh, I’m sorry. Can | interrupt for one
second?
Amaka: Yeah.
Sabrine: I found that professor’s name. Her name was [Esperanza Martell?].
Amaka: Oh, okay, yeah. I’ve heard -- other people have mentioned her as well. Yeah.
Sabrine: Okay. I just -- I feel like I’m dishonoring her by not being able to bring her up. And then I throw out all
the men and I forget the woman. Like, that’s horrible. (laughter) You know, I recognize when I make those
mistakes. But, you know, colonialism and patriarchy runs deep. (laughter)
Amaka: Yep, yep, you know.
Sabrine: It runs in your brain. And in all fairness, she actually never was my professor. I never took any of her
courses, but she was always there for us as an organization. And the other people I mentioned were actually my
professors. But -- I’m sorry, I’ll go back and answer your question. (laughter) We did exactly the way that you
described, in terms of us having a core membership, and those were the folks that were -- that took on the larger
positions in the student government, who took on the co-presidency and the treasurer. I don’t even remember, in all
honesty, who our first president was, who we ran to be -- it may have been Rachél Laforest. That’s who | think it
was. But I can’t be honest and tell you I know 100 percent. But I also felt that we worked so communally within
the space, that although my position was on the Auxiliary Enterprises board, I was still in the student government
offices every day doing work. And my position only needed me to go to a meeting, maybe like for the entire school
year, not even half a dozen meetings. But I was so in -- in terms of in the school, and then I was part of the larger
student government meeting amongst ourselves. But we are -- at that point -- and it got very intertwined. Student
government and SLAM the political organization kind of became the same thing.
Amaka: Right.
Sabrine: It wasn’t until I think later on that there was more of a distinction, as we started recruiting members that
really not all of them had as radical politics as that initial crew, and so then I think that there was more of a push to
have differences. We had people that were in student government that were very distinctly not SLAM. But it wasn’t
necessarily that much of an issue, | feel.
Amaka: Do you, do you remember any of those people who weren’t -- people that you had in the student
government that weren’t distinctly SLAM?
Sabrine: That weren’t SLAM? I remember there was a sister by the name of [Nefertiti?]. She was, she was in
student government. She had ran as student government. [00:35:00] And when we -- there just wasn’t enough
SLAM members to be able to run a full student government slate, so we had to go to the clubs and find people who
were in, who were in the clubs that were, that were politically minded or interested. So a lot of -- you know, there
was positions that didn’t really have anything to do with the policies that the student government would, would work
on, and a lot of those were taken with people from, you know, other, other groups, but that we were sympathetic to
us.
Amaka: Right, right.
Sabrine: So there was, like, Nefertiti. I remember there was, um, [Mark Grossman?], I think his name was, and a
kid named [Joshua Stern?]. And there were times where they kind of, I think, like flirted with SLAM, but I feel like
both those boys were Zionist, and that was also -- we were really distinctly against that. So there was never like a
full integration of them into SLAM. They still did a lot of the student government work and did a lot of the work
against the budget cuts. So yeah. We were so radical! Like, you really couldn’t just get anybody on board,
especially at the beginning when we think we were our strongest. So in order to be able to fill the slate, I think that
when we kind of solicit people, we talked about the difference between student government and SLAM. But as I
speak to you and I think about really what our day-to-day looked like, there was an administrative side that we kind
of deemed to be the student government side, but all of our political work was so very distinctly SLAM. And we
changed the name. Never before was there a student government that would have the name of a slate on the student
government, but I remember our stamps no longer just said USG, the stamps would always -- because you would
have to stamp flyers and various things for clubs, and like when we would like -- people would -- people would go
to the administration and get tables. There were a variety of things we would have to stamp. And those stamps
always would say, you know, Hunter College USG and the year, ’98-’99, so on and so forth. When SLAM took
office, we got SLAM USG --
Amaka: Oh, that’s what --
Sabrine: -- on our stamps. So we became SLAM USG. We were the -- like we, we completely coopted USG and
sort of made it ours, and we were all about, being, identification. So we didn’t stop, even our -- in the face of
administration and even, you know, dealing with the larger 20,000 students that were at Hunter College, we didn’t
start saying that we were student government; we’d always said we’re SLAM student government, SLAM student
government. We were always SLAM USG. So that was -- so I think that speaks to how we were able to marry the
two. It was kind of like a muddled, no clear boundaries. It was definitely like a free love kind of (laughter)
marriage.
Amaka: Okay. Yeah, that’s really helpful, because, you know, everyone speaks to it being muddled, but, you know,
I think it was helpful the way you were able to kind of distinguish administrative and, you know, SLAM USG and
all that.
Sabrine: Yeah. We tried as much, I think, as we could to own it, to own the student government and make it, make it
an arm of, like, the radical politics of SLAM.
Amaka: Right, right. How -- so, like, along with that, the radical politics of SLAM, like, ideologically, how would
you describe SLAM?
Sabrine: Radical politics. (laughter) this is hard. You know, SLAM was a space where every political ideology
would -- could be discussed and, and conversated about and explored. And it was as far left as I’ve ever seen since
then even. I’ve never seen an organization that just really truly embraced every liberation struggle in the world.
Yeah, we were politically, like, very far left. I think -- you know, and you had different ideologies in terms of we
had black nationalist, we had communist, we had socialist, we had anarchist. So we didn’t have a set ideology
where we could say, like, we’re a socialist organization. We definitely weren’t. We weren’t a communist
organization. But we all were able to fit under, like, the larger umbrella of more radical people of color politics that
embraced self-determination struggles [00:40:00] around the world. That’s the best description I can give.
Amaka: Okay. No, that’s helpful. Demographically, how would you describe SLAM? So, you know, race,
nationality, gender...
Sabrine: Oh, people of color. Thank goodness. My good--. But that -- that’s why -- people -- you know, even
people of color who weren’t necessarily as radical as a lot of the founders of SLAM would still be more interested in
SLAM and would kind of like work into that politics because who wanted to join another NYPIRG? Like (laughter)
if you were a person of color in New York, there’s no representation for us ever, anywhere. And I’ve spoken in the
past about the aesthetic of SLAM, like, how cool this group looked. And we had white members -- Christopher Day,
we had Jed Brandt. We always -- I -- you know, hindsight is 20/20. I always think now about the fact that our white
members were all male and very few -- like, Suzy Subways was, you know -- I feel like she’s the only white woman
member that was involved at Hunter. I know that City College had some white members. But --
Amaka: But it was --
Sabrine: -- you know, a lot of people never -- City College and Hunter College were never necessarily integrated as
one body. And I know that --
Amaka: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And it seems to me as if a lot of the City College white folks were men too.
Sabrine: Yeah, right?
Amaka: Mm-hmm, yeah.
Sabrine: They’re always ready to take over everything. (laughter) [Well, not?] everything, but. But you know, you
know, like, I, I made the joke about forgetting Esperanza Martell’s name, but it’s like, you know, patriarchy and
colonialism run deep. There were white women that were interested, that were interested in SLAM and interested in
doing that work, but I could imagine that it was-- that we weren’t always willing to be accepting. You know, I know
that at City College, some of the sisters that were involved there, some of the white women were involved there,
definitely felt like at Hunter College the women of color were not accepting of them. And I heard that before. You
know, and I, I won’t even -- I was probably one of those (inaudible). I -- you know. And yeah, that was it. But we
were definitely -- you know, we had white people. We were people of color for the vast majority, and then we were
women of color led. We made a decision to actually try to empower into leadership women of color. So we were
training women of color to take on the larger roles. They weren’t stuck always being the ones to answer the phones
and -- which, that work is noble too. All work in movement work is important work, and I really believe that. And
I’m a testament to that, because | always did office work. But, you know, there was a push to train women, you
know, women of color in public speaking, to train them in the administrative or the role in terms of how student
government has to survive in -- how SLAM had to survive in the role of student government and to fit in coalitions.
We were pushed to do that. Any other space that I’ve ever been in, women of color are never encouraged to be the
face of an organization that was multicul-- that had different people on it. If there was a white man in the group, of
course he’s going to be the one that’s going to represent the organization. And we didn’t have that. White men were
-- did represent as well, because, you know, (inaudible). But we, we made a push for women of color to do that
work, to speak on news shows and to (inaudible) sound bites while giving interviews, doing protests, to be the MCs
for the protests. Those were all very calculated decisions that folks who -- our insistence that we remain true to our
principles of being women of color led and being the slate that we empowered women of color.
Amaka: Right. So in terms -- you know, because | think that’s one of the really dope things that I’ve, you know,
taken from the interviews and the research that I’ve done on SLAM, the fact that it was women of color led -- what
did that mean in regards to -- | mean, because you’ve spoken to it a little bit, but, you know. Oftentimes when
you’re in these organizations that are, like, multicultural or, you know, where you have just a lot of diversity within
the group, you know, sometimes that leads to like, you know, some, some of the white men need to be told to, like,
stand down sometimes, [00:45:00] and, you know, I mean, there’s different processes around, like, allowing for folks
to take leadership and have a voice. Oftentimes that means that people who are used to having leadership need to,
you know, sit back and listen sometimes. So what -- I mean --
Sabrine: Yeah, that was hard for them.
Amaka: Were there a -- like, what was -- what was -- what did that look like in SLAM? Like, were those
conversations had often, were people told to, like, you know, stand down? I mean, were there --
Sabrine: Yes.
Amaka: Yeah, mm-hmm.
Sabrine: They were. White men were often told to be quiet. (laughs) And they were -- for some of them it was
easier. You know, you also have to be a certain white man to be willing to be in an organization like SLAM.
Amaka: That’s real.
Sabrine: So later on, like, the people that I came up with when -- the people I -- the white men I came up with were
Jed Brandt and Christopher Day, right, they were there from the beginning, and they definitely served as mentors, I
think, to a lot of us. And in that capacity I felt had -- they were more vocal, because they always taught -- you know,
(inaudible), and they both had very radical politics and changed the direction (inaudible) women. But then later on
when they were -- when we had other white men in the organization that came into an organization that already had
this system of women leadership in place, those were very specific kind of men, like [Joseph Halen?], (inaudible),
(John McCann-Doyle?], that understood that they had to, like, be, be quiet and sit back. And John McCann-Doyle --
all -- you know, like, all three of them, like John McCann-Doyle, he would sit in a meeting and he would just not
even try to talk sometimes. (laughs) He was okay with, with that. I never remember having, you know, to have a
conversation like, “Okay, now let a woman talk” with him. But we would do that when we would have our SLAM
meetings, and I remember, like, we would be sitting around, and where we would have like a speakers’ list, like who
wanted to say something. We would look for, like, let’s get, let’s get a woman. You already spoke, Mr. White Man,
like, no, we want, we want women to address us, we want people of color to address us, we want older people to
address us, we want younger people to address us. We were always very well aware, which is why in our meetings,
you know, in some spaces which would have taken a half hour took six hours for us. (laughs) We were so aware.
But yeah, we would tell white men, like, “No, that’s it. You don’t get to talk right now.” Like, “Now, you have to
listen.” And we would use that word, like -- those words, like “your privilege and your ownership over this space
and over conversation, you have to check that,” like, “Here’s me. I just want to make sure that so-and-so checks
their privilege, because they’re talking a lot. (laughter) There’s other people here that” -- we would say stuff like
that. And we could -- and, you know, there was conflict around it sometimes, but I feel like we were always very
honest about change what it was. Like, I wasn’t silencing something, to silence white men because of anything
personal, but I felt like we would have a discussion of how important it was for them to see what our world looks
like every single day and how we’re always silenced. Because if you’re in this organization with all of us, you’re in
it for one reason, but you have no idea what our world actually looks like. So yeah. And, you know, (inaudible) at
that time, and I think that in general, we got it right.
Amaka: Okay. So you’ve -- you know, you mentioned it a little bit, and I kind of have it roundabout in one of the
questions that I wrote out, but like, you know, folks have talked about, like, SLAM is just like fly, you know what
I’m saying, like just presenting --
Sabrine: Yeah, we were.
Amaka: -- itself as fly, like there was, you know, like art and poetry and, you know, culture, and, like, Kai would
like, you know, decorate the office, and it was just fly.
Sabrine: Yeah.
Amaka: Could you just speak to that a little bit?
Sabrine: We really were. We were just the coolest thing. That’s what I was saying, like, people even maybe
associated more politically with NYPIRG wouldn’t want to join them when they saw us. They’re like, “What?
They’re so whack. (laughter) Like, what are these folks?” Our chant line when we got into rallies. People would be
like, “Can we march with you? Can we march with you?” Can you imagine? We were definitely like the rock
stars. It’s so funny to think of that. And also, especially now when you think of, like, you know, reality TV and
celebrity worship as it exists, like, post-2005, [00:50:00] I feel like, it’s such a different animal, but back then, within
the young, the youth activist community in New York -- and there were a lot of groups coming out at that time.
CAAAYV, which was an organization, | think it’s Center for Asian -- Against Asian American Violence.
Amaka: Violence, yeah.
Sabrine: Right? And they were -- a lot of groups. We worked with [IEC?], we worked with a lot of different
groups, a lot of the different colleges. Even if they didn’t have SLAM, they would have like one or two radical
groups on campus, you know, like -- about things like political prisoners and things like that. But we were the -- I
feel like SLAM as an organization was the gold standard because we were large and our access to resources gave us
an opportunity to get things [simple?] (inaudible), like T-shirts made (inaudible) on it, so when we roll into a space,
we all dressed the same and we all, you know, would have a chant sheet that had these chants that were working off
of very relevant present-day hip hop. You know. It was like that some from DMX: “Stop, drop, shut ’em down,
open up shop.” Remember that song?
Amaka: Yeah, yeah. (laughs)
Sabrine: Yeah. We did a chant to that for Mumia. And then we had the flip side of that because then Kai and
Ashanti would teach us old, like, Black Panther chants, and so you -- yeah. We would -- there was just like, I feel
like, a look, and a lot of people saw this look. And I think what also helped us, we were very organized. For young
kids, we were organized. We -- when we were going in to, you know, be loud and boisterous, we did that, and then
when it was time for us to be quiet, we did that too. And then when we marched, we knew, you know, we could do a
strict formation. So we didn’t look like this just, like, messy group of ragtag kids; we looked like a -- at that time
and space, for our ages -- a very sophisticated machine. And I -- and yeah. We were so cool. Like, our poetry
readings. Now I can reminisce, I’m like, “Yeah, we were awesome.” | always tell my kids about SLAM. Like,
“Mommy, when you were in SLAM.” I’m like, “Yeah.” I think my dad can’t. (laughter)
Amaka: Word.
Sabrine: But yeah. Yeah, I think, like, our aesthetic had a lot to do with it, our, our popularity as an organization.
Amaka: Right. So SLAM had -- so SLAM was involved with like mad different activities. You have like direct
action stuff, this political education, student government stuff. I was going through -- you know that there’s like
SLAM archives at NYU Tamiment
Sabrine: Yeah.
Amaka: So I was going through some of those a while ago and, like, I was seeing, like, grant applications to like the
North Star Fund and --
Sabrine: (inaudible), yes.
Amaka: -- all type of stuff. So, like, what, what activities were you most involved in in SLAM, and what, what do
you see as like significant about the work that SLAM did?
Sabrine: Okay, the first part. I -- the campaigns that I worked on the most were definitely -- first and foremost was
all of the CUNY stuff. So very specifically, anything that was around the budget cuts, the tuition hikes, the end of
financial aid, and the end of remedial education, all of those access to education, quality education issues, it was
something that | was always on board with and always very strongly involved in. And that wasn’t the case with
everybody. Some people really didn’t do that much of that work. When we evolved into an organization that did a
lot of other projects, some folks, you know, would be in SLAM and barely did any of that work. So, you know,
were doing a lot of the other things. But for me, the, the education stuff was always very important. It really is the
reason why I joined, you know, was all of that access to education. And then specifically, other than that -- so that
was (inaudible) from 1996 -- I mean, from 1995 to 1999 when I graduated, there was never a time that that wasn’t an
issue, right, education. It wasn’t like it was one campaign that we picked up and then dropped off later on.
Amaka: Right. [00:55:00]
Sabrine: But -- I’m trying to think. So I was involved in that. And then I did a lot of the Mumia Abu-Jamal work,
about freeing Mumia Abu-Jamal. When we -- you know, when we organized Mumia -- organized along with other
groups to get people (inaudible) rallies, that was something that I think I was front and center on. | did a lot of that
work. I did -- I traveled with other women from SLAM, and we worked against the sanctions in Iraq. That was
something that I, that I was invested in.
Amaka: Can you speak more specifically to that project? Because | think I saw in the archives, like, pictures from
that time when you guys were traveling, and there isn’t a lot, like, written, so 1 couldn’t really get a lot from the
archive with regards to what the actual work was. But I did see, like -- I think I saw some letters in regards to
funding for the travel, and then some pictures, but could you speak more generally to, to that project and who you
traveled with and what that work was?
Sabrine: For sure. I didn’t -- I don’t know if the people that you’ve spoken with (inaudible) attended -- do you know
who went on the trip? No one has shared that?
Amaka: No.
Sabrine: Because I don’t know, maybe they don’t want... (laughs) (inaudible) international trip, and I [would have?]
-- [have been open about my -- what’s happened. When I came back, the FBI questioned me, but maybe I can reach
out to them and let them know, and then I can provide you with their names. You know what I mean? But I went
with some other women from, from, from SLAM. And at that point, we had already sent people to Mexico, to
UNAM. The national university in Mexico City had had like this epic strike around that time, maybe in 1998 and
1999, and it was really a very democratic people’s movement. And we had already sent people there. And we were
very vocal about international politics at that point as well. Very distinctly anti-Zionist, pro-Palestinian, very
distinctly, like, anti-statehood for Puerto Rico, anti-col-- like, colonialization of Puerto Rico. We had, like, that
international understanding, and we would always say, like, a globalist perspective. It’s not just about others, about
outside. No, this means something to us.
Amaka: Right.
Sabrine: It, it -- we made those connections. I remember one time, like, Christopher gave me the flyer -- this was
later on, but when they were gearing up for the war, the second war in Iraq, and he made a flyer that spoke about
funding for the war in comparison to funding to our schools and what that looked like. And it was a great flyer
because it actually made those connections for people. And (inaudible) -- any time -- because now I’m involved in
my children’s school, in the PTA. (inaudible) [I must do?], but -- but, you know, whenever they’re like, “Oh, we
don’t have the funding,” I’m like, “Yeah, because they’re dropping bombs. Of course we don’t have the funding.”
Like, I have that understanding. But at that point, we were making those connections for the larger body. So when
we went to Iraq, we went with the IEC, the International (inaudible). The, the trip was led by former US Attorney
General Ramsey Clark, and it was the tenth year of the Iraq sanctions. So it was in 2000; they started in 1990. And
we went to just, you know, witness, basically, the devastation that happened. And we went and we brought medical
supplies and school supplies. I think over $1 million worth in terms of, like, the larger collective body --
Amaka: Wow.
Sabrine: -- of medical supplies and school supplies to Iraq. And it was. It was an international civil disobedience,
which is interesting because the whole time that I was in SLAM -- at that point I had already graduated, so the whole
time I was a student at Hunter in SLAM, we had done a lot of actions. I also did a lot of work around police
brutality. I have to -- that -- yeah, that was like one of my other, like, like, projects. But we had done so many
things where we did civil disobediences [01:00:00] and direct actions where we would -- if there was a chance of us
getting arrested. And I came -- my father would kill me if I got arrested, Amaka. Like, you know, all of the political
activity I’m telling you about, I also want to say, like, half of that -- 95 percent of that was done in secret, because
even though my father was political and raised us to be political. He was still, like, a very much patriarchal, like,
typical Arab man, and if he knew -- if he knew -- if he heard me at these rallies, like, running through the streets
chanting about burning Cuomo or Pataki or whatever fool we were talking about, or Giuliani at that time, he would
have like locked me in a room forever. (laughter) So, so I, I had never, I had never done a civil disobedience where I
was guaranteed arrest the four -- the entire four years that I was in SLAM. And that was actually something that
when we would talk about privilege and you have that conversation about white men being in SLAM, that’s where
we encouraged white men to take the lead. We were like, “Oh, you want to be part of the struggle? Go ahead, and
get arrested.” Like, there was a very political discussion about that. It wasn’t haphazard. Like, we, we understood
people were immigrants, they didn’t have citizenship, people had green cards --
Amaka: Yep.
Sabrine: -- people didn’t have green cards, the people were their family’s sole breadwinner. You know, for some
people it just wasn’t an option. For me, you know, I felt like if | would have gotten arrested, then I would have not
been able to continue my work in SLAM.
Amaka: Right, right.
Sabrine: But then what is so interesting is, like, I didn’t want to get arrested at, like, a CUNY rally, but then they
freaking go to Iraq on like an international civil disobedience where -- it was like two years of jail -- like, up to five
years of jail time (laughs) and like $100,000 fine. I don’t know what I was thinking. When I think, I’m like, that’s
buggin’, it’s crazy. But that’s what we -- that’s what that trip was. And when we came back, we did have a lot of
difficulty. We came back -- the trip was in January of 2000. When we came back, it was like at the beginning of
this new onslaught of, of attacks against CUNY. So we did try to do some work. We did some of that, and we did a
-- some organizing. I was part of a lot of report-backs, and 1 worked with IEC for a while about it. But the truth is,
is that work I’ve swept up under this new frenzy of dissent. They wanted to attack again, and it was just -- it was
getting harder. We lost a lot of our core members, and the newer members coming in, you know, wonderful,
wonderful people who just didn’t have as much experience, you know. So that was that.
Amaka: Did those core members that you lost, did they just -- did they graduate, or what -- you said that you lost a
lot of core members at that time. Where did they go?
Sabrine: Yeah, a lot of them -- yeah, a lot of them graduated. Some, some folks moved away. But a lot of folks
graduated out and had to get full-time jobs.
Amaka: Yeah.
Sabrine: You know, we’re not a fraternity; like, no one pays our bills. The majority of us were supporting ourselves.
Even me, when I was in SLAM, like, I could live at home, but I, | worked in my dad’s store. I was literally -- like, I
was in Flatbush on, like, Saturday, and then on Sunday I had another job, I had another part-time job in the Staten
Island Mall. And then, like, my senior year I was student teaching and working in my dad’s shop and still had
another -- and, and was still working in student government as an actual paid employee. So we were all -- we were
all struggling. There was this point in our lives -- some people had children. You know, they had to, you know, take
care of that for a while. So there was a time where, you know, the initial members -- the new members became core
members, right, but the initial members of SLAM, we just -- they weren’t around as much. Kai left. Like, when Kai
left, I felt like even though she wasn’t there from the beginning, she was there as soon as we took over student
government. So she -- or the year after. I feel like the first -- maybe she was hired within the first year, not all the
way at the beginning of the year, but either towards the middle or end, or maybe in the second year that we had
student government. But she quickly, [01:05:00] quickly became our glue in so many respects. I’m sure you have --
you can’t have heard anything about SLAM, right, without talking about Kai.
Amaka: Yeah.
Sabrine: I can’t imagine anyone didn’t mention her.
Amaka: Everyone at Hunter’s mentioned her, yeah.
Sabrine: Yeah. So she was -- you could imagine -- like, how do you go into a house and talk about a family without
talking about Mom, right? So, you know, definitely. I think that when she left, it was ha-- it, it -- we didn’t have a --
a chunk of us left with her, right? A lot of it is like geography or just the way things worked out, but it for sure did
work out that way.
Amaka: Do you remember who took her position after she left?
Sabrine: Me. (laughs)
Amaka: Okay. Clearly you do! (laughs)
Sabrine: (inaudible) she was off-- she added me as an office assistant. She hired me as an office assistant the year
before she left. I think that was my, my junior year, maybe, or my senior year. Or I think I had been working there
two years by the time she made me... And then when she went to leave she, she hired me as office manager. And I
think that (inaudible) as an office manager I did, you know, a decent job, and a lot of the younger folks, I brought in
a lot of the younger folks and tried to mentor them. But I’m not Kai! Like, at that point -- I was like 22, 23 -- the
only movement I was a veteran of was SLAM. Kai came up -- she had been in the Black Panthers, she had -- like,
or affiliated with them -- the BLA -- (inaudible) had history! 1, you know, a 23-year-old girl can’t compare to that.
(laughs) You know, and all of us, like, we all had history that we had all had, you know, struggles and things like
that, but there was something that her and Ashanti -- I’m sure you heard about Ashanti --
Amaka: Yeah.
Sabrine: -- at that time they were partnered -- that they brought that just couldn’t be... You know, there, there is
magic to our, to like, the wisdom that our elders bring us. And she probably was the age I am now, so the fact, like,
that I [didn’t?] call her an (inaudible), you know, but were just maybe a little bit older than me. But when she left, I
felt like it was harder, maybe, to maintain a lot of the more radical. We still did the work, we still did a lot of the
USG work, but that’s where somehow SLAM always won. If I could say it like that, right. Like at the beginning
was between SLAM and USG, SLAM won, like. Towards the end, USG would win. And I think that that’s what
made it -- that’s maybe where a lot of people were a little more disenchanted and how [that it?] has shifted a little bit
Amaka: Well --
Sabrine: -- and it was harder for people.
Amaka: And also, I guess, you know, I guess losing open admissions had to have been extremely demoralizing as
well.
Sabrine: Yeah, like we lost the battle. Like, what -- and that’s what we had initially started. Even though I will tell
you that by the time a lot of that was happening and then like the renewed attack against CUNY, the people that
were involved were, were new, so it didn’t affect them like someone like me or maybe Rachél, who had been a part
of it -- because Rachél stayed around just as long as I did. A lot of the other folks had already been -- I was like one
of the longer, longer-standing members because after my four years of education I still continued to work in SLAM,
which wasn’t necessarily the case with most people. But it was very -- it was very demoralizing I think in the larger
scope. In the day-to-day we still felt like there was still so much work to be done that we couldn’t dwell. And we --
you know, and we didn’t. Like, come on. Like, you know, while you’re talking about, like Israel, like the politics of
Israel, you don’t lose just like an international Goli-- you know, Goliath, right. And, you know, the military arm and
all of that. So at some point we almost had to be like, mm, yeah, Giuliani, you’re nothing. Do you what I mean?
Amaka: Yeah, yeah, mm-hmm.
Sabrine: One time, you know, questions, like, “Do you support” -- like when the FBI questioned me (inaudible),
like, oh shit, what did I do to myself -- excuse my language. (laughter)
Amaka: I’m good.
Sabrine: But I’m like, no, I don’t, but what [01:10:00] about the people, but they didn’t -- they don’t care. Yeah.
Amaka: So SLAM was on, you know -- I mean, really, to, to my perception it seems like really just City College,
but I guess SLAM being on other campuses, like, what was your perception of the other chapters in comparison to
Hunter? Like, how were they different?
Sabrine: I feel like Hun-- I feel -- I know that there was something at Brooklyn College, right, and at LaGuardia
Community College.
Amaka: Mm-hmm. And City College.
Sabrine: And City College, yes. I meant like other than them. So LaGuardia was Slab. Have you introduced --
have you interviewed Slab?
Amaka: I haven’t interviewed him, but I’m in contact with him.
Sabrine: Oh my God, did you know he actually changed his name? We didn’t know him as Vlad, and he changed
his name to Slab because we were a student-organized action movement. And | don’t know if this is true, but he
insisted he changed it to Slab because he’s student liberation action brother. (laughter) He’s so dedicated. (laughter)
I love him. But we -- I think that -- I think that other chapters of SLAM, in comparison -- maybe in comparison to
Hunter were very small. Right? On their campuses I feel like they still did a lot of good work. In 2004 or 2005, I
was working for the union, the union, the Professional Staff Congress as an organizer, and the union is a union that
represents the faculty and staff at all CUNYs, at all CUNY schools. And I was at LaGuardia Community College,
literally looking into the cafeteria and saw -- and this is like 2004, 2005 -- saw a sticker that said, like, “LaGuardia
SLAM.”
Amaka: Oh wow.
Sabrine: Like, it was so crazy. Like, again, like this is before like camera phones were [fancy?]. I don’t even know
if I had a cell phone at that time. But it was like, you know, it -- they have it -- everyone had a presence at their own
school. I wasn’t on those other campuses, so it’s hard for me to really gauge what they were able to do in terms of
like on their campus --
Amaka: Right.
Sabrine: -- but I know that for us, it was important to us to have people at other CUNYs that we could work with.
And even other schools, too, like the College of Staten Island later on, we were working with -- there was a
newspaper there called the Voice, and there was a brother there named [Aman Said?], and his wife now -- they’re
married and have children -- her name then, they were just college students, was [Renee Marhang?], Marhang. And
they weren’t part of SLAM, but they were radicals, and so when we needed to do CUNY-wide movements, we
contacted them.
Amaka: Right.
Sabrine: So there were people that even though they didn’t have SLAM, had, had similar politics and became our
partners in crime. But yeah. But, you know, City College -- have people talked about like when City College
became a chapter and all of what was happening then?
Amaka: Well, I’ve only -- I haven’t really talked to that many people from City College. Later on today I’m going
to interview somebody, and | interviewed Brad Sigal. From what I’ve heard, it seems as if the City College chapter
was way more masculine. Like | don’t really hear a lot of -- like when people mention people that were in that
chapter, it tends to be all men. Like, it seems like just a very masculine chapter. It seems smaller, and it also seemed
as if because they never got student government, the conditions there were just very different there in regards to like
their vulnerability to attack.
Sabrine: Yes. thats so true for that space, the Shakur/Morales center.
Amaka: Right, right.
Sabrine: Which recently, just recently got shut down again.
Amaka: Yeah. They, they took it back. They’re trying to -- they -- I think they’re using the room for, like -- | mean,
because it just shows you like, you know, the transformation of CUNY, but they’re using it as like, I don’t know,
career development center or something ridiculous like that.
Sabrine: Yeah. And it -- but you know, at City College -- and I’m sharing this because I feel like since you’re
talking about the larger movement -- I’m not just trying to share like the SLAM gossip, right, but I feel like if you’re
going to have this understanding of how we operated, you needed to understand some of our conflicts too.
Amaka: Yeah.
Sabrine: So when I was coming up in SLAM at the beginning, one of my very first rallies that I took the lead in
[01:15:00] was they arrested an activist by the name of David Suker. Have you heard of him at City College?
Amaka: Yeah, I’ve talked to him. I haven’t inter-- I’m probably going to interview him next week, but yeah,
mm-hmm.
Sabrine: Yeah, right on. He -- (inaudible) -- and I still remember the chant we, we were chanting, like, “I am, you
are, we’re all David Suker.” | still remember it so vividly. But they had arrested him because I -- I think he was the
one that they said jumped up on the table during the board of trustees meeting. So -- so there was like this group of
-- and I think that you’re right -- male, white male activists at City College. So then, Amaka, after they kind of like
fizzle down and there was a point where it was just very clear, Hunter was the slam, like was SLAM. Right? So
there was -- so maybe after ’97 it had died down at City College. There were still radical students that we connected
with, but we didn’t necessarily see them as SLAM anymore. They didn’t necessarily identify as SLAM. And then I
want to say in 2000, [Hank Williams?] restarted a SLAM chapter at Hunter College [sic?], along with -- I’m trying
to think of the names of the women. There’s a woman there by the name of [Sydney Jordan Cooley?], and she was
-- and there were -- there was another woman, woman. Maybe when you -- maybe if you speak to people that were
part of City College, they’re remember their names, you know.
Amaka: I’m interviewing Hank later on today, so I'll ask him.
Sabrine: Oh, right on. Well, Hank, [Mr.?] Hank started a charter at City College, but there was not -- he just kind of
was like, “Okay, I want to start a new SLAM charter, and it’s going to be at City College.” And I remember at
Hunter’s SLAM, there was a lot of conflict about that. And even, you know, years later, a lot of people felt that he
just, you know, took our name. So I feel like, you know, City College SLAM had to -- so when I talked about the
white women, | feel like I’m talking about the second version. So I feel like now maybe that helps with the picture.
Like, I hopefully offered a little clarity, because there was -- there were like two waves of SLAM at City College.
There was the initial organic one that came out of CUNY Coalition Against the Cuts and was working with Hunter
and were together and doing all of that stuff, and then when Hunter’s SLAM came up, they of course -- you know,
that, I think, was more of a citywide agreement. That’s why there was someone at Brooklyn College and at
LaGuardia and City. But then once those SLAM chapters were gone, for whatever reason, you know, one or two or
three or four years later, he comes, Hank Williams comes by and says, “I want to start another SLAM chapter.” And
a lot of people weren’t happy with it. Yeah, a lot of people felt like at that point they had (inaudible), like, we had
[just done?] -- we’re like, “Why don’t you just start another organization? Why do you want it to be SLAM?” You
know, and I think that that also speaks to by the time he came around, we looked different. So even like the
understanding of having something that may -- that could have maybe -- I know this is super-ambitious -- look like
SNCC, right, and was all over the South, all over the country, the new -- a lot of the folks that were in SLAM at that
point and that were part of the decision-making process were maybe -- | don’t want to -- I don’t want to say in any
way that sounds wrong, just I kind of feel like we looked different. We looked different, which maybe I think
contributed maybe to part of the conflict.
Amaka: Okay.
Sabrine: Did I just confuse you more? | don’t know --
Amaka: Yeah, I’m not -- I’m not exactly sure what you mean by looking different. I mean, I know that there was --
I guess --
Sabrine: They weren’t as radical at that point. That’s what I mean. Like, yeah, like we weren’t as radical. At one
point I made the very bad joke that we started to look like a people of color NYPIRG. (laughter) But, but -- because
they were -- you know what, they were -- all throughout college, I have to say, like people knew it, they were like
my punching bag because they just upset me so much. | just felt like they were the epitome of, like, white-privilege
liberalism.
Amaka: Right.
Sabrine: Right, like the -- like those white-privilege liberals that really don’t do anything for you. And so I always
had it out for NYPIRG. I was -- any time I had jokes, I was cracking them against NYPIRG. So when | -- there was
a point, and [01:20:00] it was specifically when I came back. | had lived overseas for two years, and when I came
back, I did come back and say, like, what happened? Like, what happened? (inaudible), you know, where’s like the
radical politics behind it? They had lost some of it. That’s what I mean.
Amaka: Okay, all right. Do you -- are there any, like, significant -- | want to say, like, significant actions or, or kind
of experience that you haven’t spoken to yet that you feel like you should speak to in regards to SLAM? So like, I
mean --
Sabrine: Have people spoken about Amadou Diallo and the (inaudible) street?
Amaka: Not really, so if you can speak to that.
Sabrine: Yeah. When Amadou Diallo was shot 41 times by the police murderers, we were devastated as a
community. It was so personal to us, and it was something that we hadn’t experienced before. We didn’t -- you
know, we didn’t have a Malcolm, we didn’t have a Martin, we didn’t live in those days --
Amaka: Right.
Sabrine: -- where we had the leaders. Like, we had Al Sharpton, and most of thought he was a joke, right? So --
and this man was not a political activist, but he spoke -- his story spoke to us because we felt that it just exemplified
the brutality in which, like, the ruling class treated us, our people. Like, we felt like a brother had died, like, our
brother. It was very hard. And we went to basically like a Day of Rage, right? Like, the verdict came out. I --
[END OF FIRST AUDIO FILE]
Sabrine: -- protest that you see around the world, where for that day -- and I don’t -- you know, I’m sure that there
were a million political decisions made about what would be allowed and what would not be allowed, but that was
the day that we took the streets out of rage. And we all almost got arrested like three times that day. Like we all --
these are like the running away from -- like, I ran away from cops that day. We threw stuff into the street. We
blocked traffic. We -- in terms of just like an action or a situation, they -- you know, and then there were -- there
were definitely formulated planned actions. We had -- a lot of SLAM members got arrested. They closed I want to
say the Brooklyn Bridge. They’d stand in traffic with a lot, with like a citywide coalition of people.
Amaka: | think I read about that. I think there -- yeah.
Sabrine: Yeah. We (inaudible) -- 1 wanted -- like, we were on fire. Like we as a people and a community were on
fire. And it was just like so emotional and tearful and -- it was -- that felt -- like, I’1l never forget those days. Those
were, you know, I remember being -- you know, the cops like telling us to stay on the sidewalk, and that’s like the
first time like I actually had the nerve to like curse out a cop. I was so angry, and I like -- I cursed at him, like, “F
you, you’re not going to tell me what to do” -- like so angry. And had like people, you know, people like pulling
me, “Shut up, Sabrine,” like. But then two minutes later the same people cursing at the same cop. And then like
literally, like, taking, you know, taking like garbage cans, like, and going into the streets. That’s not -- that day, like,
we didn’t allow them to pen us in. Like, we refused. As a -- as a political organization, SLAM consistently and
always felt like they were getting penned in by the cops at protests and rallies. There were some times where the
decision was made to stay within just (inaudible). Maybe we didn’t have enough people to (inaudible). We were
smart, you know what I mean? People don’t always think of that stuff. But it was -- we definitely challenged it very
often. And I think that was the first day -- like, it wasn’t even a political decision. Like, we were all just so filled
with anger and hurt that we, we didn’t -- like, anything the police said, we literally just did the opposite. Yeah, that
was, that was rough. And then (inaudible) I remember in terms of like that protest was large, SLAM had -- it was
kind of like the first time that SLAM did something that was national, on a national scale, that we played such a
large role in. We, we only were responsible for bringing up the majority of people that were coming from New York
on buses to that rally. We brought hundreds of people to that rally. So that was something that -- there were a lot.
We were part of so many things. You know, and then smaller, more artistic things, like having papier-maché, like,
pifiata of, like, Giuliani, (inaudible) beat. (laughter) There was a lot of that stuff. Does that answer your question, or
were you --
Amaka: Yeah.
Sabrine: -- (inaudible) something else?
Amaka: No, no, no, that totally answers it. Do you remember, because you mentioned it just now, but like some of
the organizations, some of the community organizations that you guys were in coalition with, that you guys would
do, you know, rallies, programming, whatever, with?
Sabrine: Yeah. We (inaudible) coalition against police brutality. We worked with them. We worked with CAAAV.
We worked with, like the -- I feel like it’s just like (inaudible), but (inaudible--addiction?) Organization. We worked
with GUPS, the General Union of Palestinian Students. We worked with -- oh, citywide, we worked with everybody
everywhere in the city. Malcolm X, MXG, like Malcolm X Grassroots Movement. Who -- I just feel like -- there
was also that -- I’m trying to think of the organization that Kamau Franklin and [Amanda Ranier?] were part of
(inaudible).
Amaka: Well, Kamau was in MXG, but was it also Student Power -- Student Power, something like that?
Sabrine: Yeah, SPM, Student Power Movement. Thank you! Have you interviewed Kamau?
Amaka: I’m actually interviewing him on Friday. And I was, I was in MXG for a few years, so I know a lot of --
Sabrine: Oh, (inaudible). Oh, you know Lumumba Bandele?
Amaka: Mm-hmm.
Sabrine: I love Lumumba! | love -- he [00:05:00] -- I, I genuine-- he actually, when I came into Hunter, he wasn’t at
Hunter when I came, but he always still looks out for me. I love Lumumba. | still (inaudible) say he’s like my
Facebook friend. He’s such a wonderful human being. But yeah.
Amaka: Yeah, it’s interesting for me, because on one hand it’s like, you know, for the dissertation, you know, I’m
very focused on, like, talking to SLAM people, but one of the things that most got me interested in SLAM generally
was just this era with all these organizations, you know --
Sabrine: Yeah.
Amaka: -- and just, just, you know, the collaboration. This is a time in which a lot of the organizations that are still
doing work are really emerging, and, like, just the networks of like organizing, and so --
Sabrine: Yeah. And the family, the family of it, like the community. Like, MXG was part of our community, right?
And yeah. And then, you know -- do you know (inaudible)? Maybe because my sister came out in that world of,
like, poetry and spoken word at Hunter, but there were like all of those artists that later then became, like, [Willie
Frogomo?] and [Tony Mezina?] and Asha Bandele and [Picala?] and (inaudible) and, and all of these folks that were
part of that movement, that artistic movement, you know, at the Blue Moon Café (inaudible). They all had, you
know -- they all in some ways associated with these different organizations. They were like our artistic arm of the
revolution.
Amaka: Right.
Sabrine: Right? That’s crazy, yeah.
Amaka: Yeah, so I mean, you know, | have -- you know, for my dissertation and just my timeline with that, like, I
have to keep it very focused, but | just feel like for a longer-term project, | just feel like there’s just something really
compelling about that period that isn’t necessarily, like, written down, in terms of all of these people and
organizations in relationship to each other. You know?
Sabrine: You know who -- have you seen -- there is an, a documentary about Bed-Study, Brooklyn, during that time.
Have you seen that documentary?
Amaka: No, what -- about Bed-Stuy around that time?
Sabrine: About Bed-- yeah.
Amaka: Uh-uh.
Sabrine: It’s -- Amaka, I’m going to look it up and see if I can give you at least the name or try to --
Amaka: Okay.
Sabrine: I -- it just speaks about -- it speaks about kind of like the black arts movement in that time, but it’s so funny
because all of the people that they mention, like [Howlet Clouise, Ertriz?] Mos Def, Erica (inaudible). If we weren’t
fans -- we were all fans, but then also, like, we had, you know, Dead Prez perform at our street fairs. They
performed at Hunter -- at student -- like, what?!
Amaka: Right. And like Black August, you know.
Sabrine: Yeah. And like Mos Def performed -- Mos Def performed, and I think he emceed one of (inaudible)
concerts.
Amaka: Was it -- was the documentary Brooklyn Boheme?
Sabrine: Oh yes, it was.
Amaka: Yeah. I’ve seen that. That’s -- I mean, it’s -- that’s interesting because it’s, it’s mostly about Fort Greene,
but it kind of --
Sabrine: Oh, it is Fort Greene. You’re right, I’m sorry.
Amaka: Yeah. But, I mean, it speaks to Bed-Stuy a little bit, but it’s mostly Fort Greene. And | think -- I mean, for
me, | liked it, but it’s a piece, you know what I’m saying? It’s just a piece.
Sabrine: Yeah.
Amaka: And so I’m -- | just -- it just --
Sabrine: It’s a piece of that story.
Amaka: Right, right. And I’m just interested in seeing something that’s almost more holistic, that kind of speaks to
like the different relationships between, you know, artists and movement folks and different organizations and
different movements, and -- yeah, all of that. (laughs) So --
Sabrine: My God, yeah.
Amaka: So maybe for a long-term project. Maybe, maybe (laughter) down the line. I have to -- I want to get my
degree first and finish.
Sabrine: That’s true. Right on.
Amaka: Okay. So I only have a few, just a few more questions. In terms of the perception of SLAM by the student
body at Hunter, did that change over time? Like, do you --
Sabrine: Yeah.
Amaka: Okay, can you speak to that?
Sabrine: I felt that -- I felt that at the beginning -- we always had our haters, but as CUNY policy changed and a lot
of the people who would naturally lean toward supporting us, who were disenfranchised people of color, were then
-- were, like, the working poor, they were collectively shut out of CUNY, right?
Amaka: Mm-hmm.
Sabrine: So over the years, slowly, as the remediation policies and the cuts to financial aid and the increase in
tuition, as they took hold on what CUNY looked like -- especially Hunter, because Hunter was considered one of
like the flag-- like the flagship schools of CUNY, so there was this [00:10:00] push to turn it into, like, Ivy League --
Ivy League is kind of a joke, but to definitely take it out of the hands of the people. There was a point where, you
know, CUNY looked different, Hunter looked different, and you could tell because people were not stopping by at
our tables. It became an uphill battle. There was a new president at Hunter, her name was Jennifer Raab, she gave
us a really hard time. And yeah, we definitely lost towards the end a lot of our support base.
Amaka: You know, SLAM, for a student organization, had a really -- like a relatively long lifespan for a student
organization. Why do you think that SLAM lasted as long as it did?
Sabrine: Because we had a space. Yeah, we had a space and we had resources, and so even though | think that when
members graduated -- so what would normally happen, if we were a regular organization, like, you know, one set of
members would graduate, and then that’s it, they were gone; there was nothing to hold the organization together
anymore. You know, there were like one or two or three stragglers left, and then so the organization would just
dissipate. Because we had the student government offices and those resources, we were able to recruit people and
we were able to get people who were initially involved in student government to do SLAM. And so I think that
that’s part of the reason why, you know, we lasted longer and we -- that group definitely did so much important
work. I never want to sound as if I dismiss the hard, the really hard work that that later group did -- which I was a
part of, to an extent -- but it, it was, it had already started looking different, and it kind of like prolonged the death of
SLAM, I feel like, and made it less (inaudible) and less just going out one shot. It took a couple of years where we
kept on like revving up, like before the elections in the spring, there’d be like this big push, and then we -- there was
just an onslaught of attacks. Like, Jennifer Raab was vicious with SLAM. She, she -- it -- I think she was
responsible for them losing the student government. You know? And so -- and then there was a new -- you know, a
whole new set of attacks against CUNY. And the school looks different. So in 1995 when I walked in, I was
literally getting people to sign petitions for Mumia Abu-Jamal, right, and I would be able to stop people, and I would
tell you, the majority of people, or close to majority, would sign the petition. You know, those kids that had to
organize in 2000 and -- oh my God, after September 11th, like the people that organized after that thing, you know,
our school looked different. We had this whole new white community in our school that literally -- I -- you know,
we were doing things about like tuition hikes, and I will never forget, this one kid was like, “I don’t care if they raise
the tuition; my dad pays for my tuition.”
Amaka: Wow.
Sabrine: “It’s not going to mean anything to me. Like, $500 doesn’t mean anything.” That’s who we got! So what
do we do with that?
Amaka: Yeah. By the time that, you know, you graduated and -- or not just graduated, but by the time that you left,
like, SLAM, when you were no longer working at CUNY and you had graduated --
Sabrine: Yeah.
Amaka: -- how would you describe yourself politically. Like, you know, I guess just speaking to the ways in which
SLAM may have, you know, helped shape or develop you politically. How, how was it when you -- by the time you
left, how would you describe yourself politically?
Sabrine: I think that I came in as, you know, believing in freedom and resolution like very useful ideas, but I left,
and still today, just believe in human liberation. And, and as I said earlier, self-determination. Like, I’m all about
self-deter-- you know, my kids are -- my kids, if you hear them speak, it’s so evident even in the way my kids speak
that that’s all I -- you know, I’m about. My daughter -- can I tell you a funny story real quick?
Amaka: Yeah, yeah.
Sabrine: I feel like it just speaks to who I am, and it’s not by accident. Like, it’s not by accident that I’m this way,
and it’s not because of, like, a lack of anything, it’s like with a very strong political education that I believe this. But
my daughter -- and I put this up on Facebook the other time -- she was telling me that all the girls in her class
(inaudible) like to touch her hair, and I’m like, “Well, what do you do when, you know -- what do you think about
that, Janine?” And she’s just like, “Well, Mommy, I [00:15:00] don’t like to be mean to my friends, but I tell them
not to touch me when I don’t want them to. I don’t (inaudible) my friends, but they have to respect how | feel,
right?”
Amaka: Mm-hmm. (laughs)
Sabrine: My daughter’s seven. (laughs) And I feel like that’s, that’s who I, I’m raising, and it’s who I believe. Like,
I just believe 100 percent in self-determination. Like, you want that? If it doesn’t harm anybody, do it. You know.
I’m one, I’m like, oh, these people want to (inaudible), let them (inaudible). Who cares? That’s really what I’m
about, like, people, you know, determining for themselves, like, what they want to be, recognize that, or grouped as,
and how they want to live, and as long as it doesn’t hurt anybody, respecting that. And that was -- you know, that
was -- from, from the vernacular behind it, the language behind it is (inaudible). And the respect to it. You know, I
was raised Muslim, so I probably -- and | still identify as Muslim, but a lot of my radical politics, I probably
wouldn’t have that if I’d just stayed in like a Palestinian nationalist ideology. Like a lot of my ideas about gender
and, and, and, like, gender relationships, that comes specifically from SLAM.
Amaka: Can you speak, I guess generally, to, you know, post-SLAM, like the movement work or just the type of
work that you’ve been involved in since then?
Sabrine: Sure. After I left SLAM -- first I taught. I was overseas for two years when | still considered myself an
active member of SLAM. I feel like I was on sabbatical. And | taught for two years in Jordan. And I came back
and worked with SLAM again. But then when I left that, when I left SLAM at that point, I needed another job, and I
became a union organizer for the Professional Staff Congress, and so | did that organizing work. And | was able to
maintain a lot of my (inaudible) CUNY work through my work at the PSC, you know, in the capacity of being an
organizer for the PSC, but also outside of that. I still maintain like a lot of connections to folks, even not necessarily
the ones that were in SLAM, but when SLAM was gone, rather, I still maintained my connections to folks and was
still part of a lot of things. So I think that that’s what I stayed working on with CUNY the most. And I worked there
for five years, and it was three and a half years ago. It was in 2009 when I left that job. And have made a decision
to, like, be at home and be with my children and raise them for -- the goal was like five to seven years, and then, you
know, and then get back into the work. So I think of myself still as politically active, because I’m still aware of what
goes on and I still attend rallies and I will still help different organizations when I can, but I made a very conscious
decision, you know == and I said, like, I have the rest of my life to continue doing this political work. I just want to
make sure I can handle -- I want to be there for my children outside of that world --
Amaka: Yeah, okay.
Sabrine: -- in these formative years. But yeah. So (inaudible), here at three and a half, I’ve like created a political
activist break. (laughter) Because I was all in. You can imagine, start talking to me. I was all in.
Amaka: Yeah.
Sabrine: (inaudible). Let me take a break, and then I can get back at it.
Amaka: Mm-hmm. What do you, what do you think is the legacy or the, the significance of SLAM?
Sabrine: Um... Legacy of SLAM...
Amaka: Or, or, I guess, or I guess more generally, if that’s a weird question, like, what lessons did you learn most
from that period? Like, what did you take from that that you’re still -- that you still carry with you?
Sabrine: Other than like my very specific, like, very open-minded politics, also -- and I think Irini asked me a similar
question, and I answered the idea of community. I think that’s what my answer was. Just this larger idea of
community and the importance of building, building political organizations and empowering the most
disenfranchised to be able to dictate [00:20:00] the, the voice and the tone of that political organization. And I think
that for years to come, students have -- that have to fight this like very uphill battle against corporatization, and we,
we were kind of the vanguard of that. The political movements before us, the ones that we idolized and understood,
most of them were about, about racism and gender issues. And, you know, it actually was kind of a very funny joke
that I ended up working for a union, because | was never really a big union person. The only reason why I chose the
union job was because it was CUNY-affiliated, and I wanted, I wanted to keep working around CUNY issues. Like,
it really is a passion for me. So outside of unions and the way that they organize around workers, | think that we
were -- what we see now, that the corporatization of all of like our public and communal access -- like, programs and
different things -- we were the first people to fight against that. So | think that in the future -- or, amongst the first.
Definitely not the first, but amongst like that first wave. So | think like in the future when students are going to have
to keep fighting this thing, they can look to SLAM and learn from our mistakes. Right? And a lot -- you know, and
we’ve made a lot -- we did make some mistakes, but also we were very principled, and I think that that’s something
that people -- and I always say that. I really believe that, and I don’t think that it’s naive. We really held ourselves
to a very high standard and were very principled as an organization, and that’s something that I’m proud to have
been a part of, and | think that’s a wonderful legacy, to teach people to actually stand for what you believe in and
don’t get in bed with the enemy, not even a little bit. Not even a little bit. Don’t even get -- don’t even even get a
quick feel. (laughter)
Amaka: All right. Well, is there anything else that you’d, you know, like to say about -- I mean, my questions are
done.
Sabrine: Thank you, Amaka. | feel like I, I, 1 spoke so much. I don’t have anything else to say. If you have any
other questions, please let me know. You know, either through email communications or now you have my number.
You really can call me. Before two o’clock is best because you don’t have to hear the chorus of children behind me
(laughter) when my kids are home.
Amaka: Okay.
Sabrine: Yeah. My kids are like kind of sick this morning, and I was like, “Oh, I’m not going to be able to do an
interview if y’all are home. Go to school.” (laughter)
Amaka: Okay. Well yeah, no, that’s cool. I mean, I -- this has been a like really excellent interview. Like I’ve --
Sabrine: Thank you.
Amaka: -- gotten so much from it, and so I thank you for, you know, taking the time out. I know it’s not easy to
kind of like carve away two hours to speak to some random person about SLAM, but --
Sabrine: Oh, thank you. I’m so happy that you’re doing this work.
Amaka: Yeah, me too. I mean, I’m -- you know, the interviewing is, is some of the best part about it, you know, and
the archives are dope, it’s just, you know, there’s a lot of politics within my department and within my committee
and stuff about this project, but the actual research is, is amazing and is great, so I’m, I’m really grateful that I get to,
you know -- that this gets to be my research. I’m really grateful for that.
Sabrine: You know, Amaka, | have a box from the archive that’s old photos.
Amaka: Oh, okay.
Sabrine: That didn’t go into the (inaudible) library. And I’m not putting it in there. (laughs) But if you want -- if
you want to maybe talk about finding a way to get the box to you or you coming and seeing some of the stuff, we
have a lot of like crazy pictures in there. So I have a box, just so you know.
Amaka: Okay, that’s -- yeah, that’s wonderful.
Sal
brine: All right? (laughs)
Amaka: All right. Well, I'll probably, you know, hit you up sometime in the future about, you know, perhaps, you
know, viewing some of the stuff in that box maybe, or -- yeah, sometime in the future.
Sal
brine: Right on. No problem. That’s great.
Amaka: Okay. All right, well, have a great day. Thank you again.
Sal
brine: Thank you. Thank you so much.
Amaka: All right. Peace.
Sal
brine: Have a great day. Be safe.
Amaka: All right. Thanks, bye.
END OF AUDIO FILE
DIGITALHISTORYARCHIVE
A project of the Professional Staff Congress Archives Committee
Interview with Sabrine Hammad
Interviewed by Amaka Okechukwu
November 15, 2019
New York, NY
[Start of recorded material at 00:00]
Amaka Okechukwu: All right, so can you just state -- this is just the basic identification questions -- if you
could just state your name.
Sabrine Hammad: Sabrine Hammad.
Amaka: And your age?
Sabrine: Thirty-six.
Amaka: And how do you racially identify?
Sabrine: As a Palestinian American.
Amaka: Okay, and how do you identify your gender?
Sabrine: Female.
Amaka: And how do you identify your sexual orientation?
Sabrine: I never do. (laughter)
Amaka: Okay, that’s cool. And are you -- what is your marital status, and do you have children?
Sabrine: Yes, I’m married, and I have two children, a boy and a girl.
Amaka: Okay, great. So can you speak to where you were born and raised? You know, just generally growing up,
like location-wise and both kind of your immediate household as well as, you know, your surroundings --
neighborhoods, schools, those sort of things.
Sabrine: For sure. I was actually born during the civil war in Lebanon, and my parents moved to the United States
when I was a year and two months old, to Brooklyn. And I -- they lived in Park Slope for maybe one or two years,
or -- I don’t know if it was Gowanus or Park Slope back then. But I grew -- I started my elementary school years in
Sunset Park, Brooklyn, which at that time was a large immigrant, Puerto Rican, like specifically Puerto Rican --
larger Latino community, but very specifically Puerto Rican community. And I went to school -- I went to my
elementary school there, and then at junior high school age, my parents moved to Staten Island, New York, which
was a very different community, white community. And so -- and that’s where they live. That’s where they still live
now. | grew up in Sunset -- I consider myself having grown up -- that I grew up in Sunset Park, Brooklyn.
Amaka: Okay. How would you, you know, describe I guess the environments in regards to, you know, school.
Like, is there anything specific that you remember about, like, high school or middle school in regards to, like, race
and class? Like, you’ve mentioned that, you know, moving from, you know, a very Puerto Rican neighborhood to a
very white neighborhood, was that --
Sabrine: Very conflicting.
Amaka: Yeah. How was that experience, and do you remember it?
Sabrine: It was rough. It was very rough. Also, I grew up in Sunset Park, Brooklyn, and I really, even at Sunset
Park, Brooklyn, identified, was identified as “other” because my parents were new immigrants and were very
strongly attached to their cultural roots and identity, and they were very different than what was the norm in my
neighborhood then. But I didn’t feel -- I, I knew that I was different, but I didn’t necessarily feel attacked for it,
because I grew up there, it’s different. When I came into Staten Island, a Palestinian, and I moved into a
neighborhood -- I started going to school with a lot of children that had heard a lot of horror stories about
Palestinians over the years, and | definitely was attacked for that, and that was rough. I’ve told my parents, “Why
would you move us to Staten Island? You know we’re Palestinian. That’s not a good move.” But (laughs) at that
time, like, they didn’t know the dynamic that happened in the school. For sure, yeah.
Amaka: Is there a -- is there a Palestinian community in New York, and if so, are your -- you know, was your family
at all connected to that?
Sabrine: There is. There is a Palestinian community. My family was connected to it to an extent. My father was a
Palestinian freedom fighter when, when he was coming up, and that’s actually why I was born in Lebanon; that’s
why he was there with my mom and two older sisters. So he had some political connections, and he had his own
connections, but in all honesty, we were raised a little more insular from the larger community in terms of the
children. And it wasn’t until we were older -- much older -- that we became active in the Palestinian community.
My first Arab friends from school -- when I had a large number of Arab friends -- were in college. [00:05:00] And,
and since then, when | -- after I got married, I originally moved to Bay Ridge, Brooklyn, which if you know about
Brooklyn, that’s the Arab -- that’s definitely like the Arab-concentrated neighborhood. We have two in New York.
There’s Astoria, Queens, and Bay Ridge, Brooklyn. Astoria has a lot of North Africans and Egyptians. I’m just
giving you this history --
Amaka: Yeah, this is helpful.
Sabrine: And Brooklyn, we -- the Arabs that originally immigrated to the United States in the 1800s and early
1900s, a lot of them were Lebanese and Syrian, a lot of them were Christian. They moved to downtown Brooklyn,
and then in the ’70s they started moving up towards the Bay Ridge. And now that’s where you have a lot of
Lebanese, Syrian, the Yemenese and Palestinian. And now there’s more Egyptians there too, but there is kind of that
difference between, like, the Mediterranean countries, the Fertile Crescent, in Brooklyn, and then North African in
Queens.
Amaka: Okay. Could you -- I mean, you already mentioned that your, you know, your father was a freedom fighter
in Palestine. Can you speak more to, you know, your parents politically, like their political identification and
growing up, like, how would you describe them politically, and how was your household politically?
Sabrine: My household, | definitely would say Palestinian nationalists growing up, growing up. For my -- and that,
that was because of my dad. I, I have had -- the interview -- I’ve interviewed with Suzy Subways -- I’m sure you’ve
spoken to her --
Amaka: Yeah.
Sabrine: -- (inaudible) Suzy, and with Irini Neofotistos SLAM Herstory Project, and I’ve told them about how my
mom, like, sabotaged our political involvement because she was so worried. So she’s very consciously and
purposefully not political, but my father was definitely very strong nationalist. I would say in some areas even
radical, and (inaudible) definitely not all. He had a lot of traditional ideology as well. But we grew up in a political
household. I’m one of five, and my two older sisters were very active in, in politics as well in those years, the
SLAM years, and they were both involved with SLAM as well.
Amaka: Okay, all right.
Sabrine: Did that answer your question?
Amaka: Yeah, it does, it does. And I --
Sabrine: Okay. If 1 don’t answer your question, please tell me, Amaka --
Amaka: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sabrine: -- because I can -- yeah. (laughs)
Amaka: No, you’re answering your -- absolutely. And, you know, I’m in, in contact with Suzy and I’ve, you know,
read a lot of the interviews that she’s posted, so, you know, I’m also not going to have you necessarily repeat
yourself if you’ve spoken to specific things in different places, so.
Sabrine: No, for sure. No, of course. I’m happy to -- whatever’s going to make your interview -- give you the best
information you need for your dissertation.
Amaka: Okay. Well, thank you very much. All right, so -- so growing up, what did your parents do? Like, what
was their occupations and -- yeah. What were their occupations?
Sabrine: My father was actually very typical Arab immigrant shopkeeper or owner. He, he -- I don’t know -- you’re
-- you know right now (inaudible) California?
Amaka: No. I’m in Brooklyn. I live in Crown Heights.
Sabrine: Oh, you’re in Brooklyn?
Amaka: Yeah.
Sabrine: (inaudible). So you know that very typical Arab grocery store owner in all of the lower-income
neighborhoods. Have you seen that?
Amaka: Yeah.
Sabrine: I don’t know if they’re in Crown -- I don’t -- well, Crown isn’t a very lower-income -- you have beautiful
houses in Crown Heights, actually. (laughs)
Amaka: Yeah. I mean, it’s, it’s mixed, and you know, Crown Heights has an interesting dynamic because a lot of it
is Hassidic, so there’s just -- there’s an interesting just dynamic with that happening.
Sabrine: Yeah.
Amaka: But, you know, I lived -- I’ve lived in like Clinton Hill, on the border of Bed-Stuy. Like, I -- you know, I, I
have an understanding of that, yeah.
Sabrine: He had like that very typical, like, when you go into areas and you have like the Arab grocery store. That
was my dad. He owned -- he, he worked -- when he first came, he worked -- he had that story where he did work
like seven days a week for like 16 hours a day, almost no money, in supermarkets -- which is really back-breaking
work. It’s one of like the hardest -- as an adult, I see that -- it’s one of the harder physical jobs to do stock and things
like that. And then, you know, he started just to own -- he was in partnerships with [00:10:00] supermarkets, and
then I -- my whole high school years, he had a, a grocery store on Flatbush Avenue. So I spent every weekend and
all the summer, all my summers, first in Hollis, Queens, which is why I have an affinity for like old-school
(inaudible) hip-hop, (laughter) and then in -- and then in Flatbush, which is why I have an affinity for dance hall.
It’s hilarious. My music taste is such a study in (laughter) all the phases of my life. (laughter)
Amaka: that’s what’s up.
Sabrine: Yeah.
Amaka: Okay. And then -- okay. So your father worked in a store. Did your mother work, or -- did she also work
in the store?
Sabrine: My mom was a housewife.
Amaka: Okay, mm-hmm.
Sabrine: And she refused at any point to ever -- like, while other immigrant women in the ’90s and early 2000s,
while my classmates, their moms were working, my mom just believed that it is not her role; she should not ever
have to work. It’s so purposeful. She refused. She didn’t like even go visit my dad in the store, just in case he’d ask
her to do something. (laughter) She was really serious. She was like, “That is your job. I raise five children.”
Amaka: (laughs) That’s real.
Sabrine: Yeah.
Amaka: Okay. So did you -- which -- did you go straight into college after high school or did you take time off, or?
Sabrine: No, I went straight to college.
Amaka: Okay. So did you -- you attended Hunter?
Sabrine: I did. (inaudible) Hunter (inaudible).
Amaka: Okay. What years were you at Hunter?
Sabrine: From 1995 to 1999 as a student, but then I worked in the USG the SLAM offices in the year 2000. And
then I went away 2000 to two thousand-- yeah, from 1999 to 2000, and I went away, I was overseas for a few years,
but when I came back, I worked in the SLAM offices for one more year.
Amaka: Okay. Okay. Why did you choose Hunter out of all of the cuny schools?
Sabrine: Because my two sisters were there. And it was in Manhattan. I was in Staten Island. My other option was
CSL, the College of Staten Island, and I -- I just wanted to get off of Staten Island. Have you been to Staten Island?
I didn’t know that you -- I just told you my whole Brooklyn/Queens story thinking you were from California. I
don’t know why I thought that.
Amaka: I am, I am -- I am from California.
Sabrine: Oh, okay. (laughs)
Amaka: Yeah, I’m from Oakland, but I’ve lived in New York for like six years now, so I’ve lived in Brooklyn.
Sabrine: Have you ever been to Staten Island?
Amaka: Very briefly. Like, I haven’t spent much time there.
Sabrine: Yeah. Well, just from you being there, could you tell why I was trying to run off the island?
Amaka: Yeah. No, it’s very white, it’s very kind of suburban and -- yeah.
Sabrine: I was like (inaudible). It was horrible.
Amaka: Okay. What was your -- what was your major? What did -- what did you major in?
Sabrine: I majored in history and education.
Amaka: Okay. And by the time that you got to college, | mean, would you say that you were politicized in a
particular way? I mean, how would you describe yourself politically at the time at which you entered college?
Sabrine: I was always, even among -- even in high school, when I was involved with, like, Amnesty International
and the human rights group and the animal -- against animal testing group -- | always was politically involved, but I
always was so much more left-leaning or radical than any one of my peers. So I always felt like I had a political
understanding because of my family, who my dad was, my older sisters, but I always felt that the political -- the
political activist structure that was put in place wasn’t something that necessarily represented me 100 percent. I
always felt so much more than that. So I would definitely say when | entered college I had already come in with,
like, my foot in, in the door.
Amaka: Okay.
Sabrine: Because of -- yeah.
Amaka: Do you remember any professors or, like, significant courses that you took while you were at Hunter?
Sabrine: Yes. I had -- do you mean that shaped my current political ideology --
Amaka: Yeah.
Sabrine: -- or do you just mean, like -- okay. So I had Professor Robert [G. Shah?], who is a -- he was an English
professor and also part of Asian American Studies [00:15:00] department, who I took -- initially I took just English
with him. I think it was like the second course of English that we take at CUNY. But then I, I followed him -- I was
such a fan, I took I think like two or three more classes with him. (inaudible) in the asian american studies
department. And that was all Asian American literature after that. He was excellent and very -- I think he was the
first professor or the person who had like an academic (inaudible) -- had a -- he was definitely political and
definitely pushed for additional, you know, broader understanding Asian American studies and the role of Asian
Americans in the community, but he was the first person that I saw, like, do it academically. And then I’m sure if
you ask other people that we had Professor [Casmali?], and that was Puerto Rican Studies. And anyone mentions
him, if you ask them this question; he was such a big hit. And I loved him.
Amaka: Yeah, I’ve had a few people mention him. Definitely.
Sabrine: He was so cute. He was -- (laughter) He -- had this little cult following. It’s funny. I know that other
people (inaudible) stuff, but I’m all about, like, essentially freedom in (inaudible).
Amaka: Yeah, no, | appreciate it. I love all the details. I love -- it makes -- it provides a fuller picture for me.
Sabrine: Yeah, like why a lot of people started taking Professor Casmali. They weren’t all interested in black,
Puerto Rican literature, but they were like, I’m interested in Professor Casmali. (laughter) And he was -- he was
great. But you know, just the fact that there were black and Puerto Rican literature classes at Hunter meant so much,
I think, for people that historically have felt disenfranchised. I’ve never identified myself as black or Puerto Rican,
you know -- I mean, in a larger context of like just disenfranchised, yeah. But for me, I still felt definitely an affinity
to that department and felt like -- there’s -- you know, there was definitely no Arab American Studies department at
Hunter, and then the BLCR was kind of the next place that I could go to to find at least some affirmation within the
school. So he was -- he was excellent, and he helped -- he helped when Professor [Carver?] in sociology -- I think
he was in sociology -- he was -- he was great. And -- oh my God. There’s one more professor. She was amazing,
and I’m so sad I can’t remember her name right now. And actually, Irini, I tried to mention in her Irini’s interview as
well, and I forgot her name. And what’s funny is she’s the only person that’s like on my Facebook of all those
professors.
Amaka: Oh.
Sabrine: That breaks my heart. I got to look it up.
Amaka: Well, if you remember -- I mean, whenever you remember it, you can always, like, email it to me or
something. You know what I’m saying?
Sabrine: For sure.
Amaka: That’s cool.
Sabrine: That’s what I’m gonna do.
Amaka: Okay. So at the time, you know, you entered, °95, can you describe, like, the political -- what you
remember about the political climate generally in New York at the time?
Sabrine: For me, I was 18 years old, so I didn’t know a lot of the big picture, but I really felt -- 1 had come in 1995
right off of that humongous rally that CUNY Coalition Against the Cuts had put together at city hall, where it was --
Amaka: Right.
Sabrine: -- and it was really -- I came there in the fall after a spring of intense globalization and activity and
demonstration and protests against the cut to open admissions and remedial education and the increase in -- the cuts
in financial aid. So I came in after that gauntlet was thrown, so to say, and as an 18-year-old, I felt like I was living
in the end of times. I’m like, oh man, this is crazy. (laughter) Yeah. That’s like 100 percent true. It felt very strong
and it felt -- I thought this is when things would change, you know. Like, okay, we got this, we'll do this, this is
what’s going to happen now in the course of the world. You know, this our, like, 1958 before 1959 in Cuba
(laughter) or -- that’s what it felt like.
Amaka: Okay. in Hunter -- you know, clearly, I guess, [00:20:00] coming off of the big rally and, you know, at city
hall, and just generally, I guess, Hunter must have been just bustling with political activity. So can you describe,
like, you know, how the political climate was at Hunter when you entered, just in terms of different organizations
and, like, you know, just general kind of student activity?
Sabrine: If you’re ever been to Hunter -- do you -- if -- it’s a few buildings connected by, like, walkways.
Amaka: Right, yeah. I’ve been there.
Sabrine: And yes, so I was -- when I was talking to Irini, I was talking about how we were older than the hallways.
There were always -- those -- you would walk from Hunter West, where there was tables, you know, where you
signed a petition for Mumia Abu-Jamal, to get him off the death penalty, and then you would walk, and then the
Palestinian Club which I was part of had a table that was talking -- like, against the occupation, against what was
going on in Palestine. And then, like, right next to it was the (inaudible), which is (inaudible), but they would have
like some postcards you could send to the governor for some reason, anyway. So that -- and that was every day, all
day every day. And then once slam came on the scene, we were always out there. But it wasn’t even just slam. The
women’s studies -- like, there were feminist groups at Hunter, there were other people of color groups at Hunter.
The year that I was -- my freshman year, a lot of the folks that had been in the Black Student Union and had been
part of that cuny coalition against the cuts, part of that big push, they had just graduated right before I came. Or,
like, a lot of them were taking like a semester off. So I remember -- I remember that first year some folks trying to
rebuild the Black Student Union. You know. I don’t know if (inaudible), he was -- he was part of that the first year.
So yeah, there were always folks in the hall. I felt like Hunter -- you know, it was just busting at the seams, and
always -- something was always going on. There was always a poetry reading or a movie being shown. Like, there
were all these activities all around the school, and they were just actually literally in the hallway -- in the hallways.
You’re always bumping into one club or another.
Amaka: Okay. How do you -- like, how did SLAM come to be in regards to your -- I mean, I don’t -- you may have
not -- I don’t know at what point in time you joined SLAM, if it was at the beginning or at what stage, but how --
you know, what is -- you know, how would you speak to kind of the beginning of SLAM?
Sabrine: I think that when, when I first entered -- when I first entered as a freshman in the fall of 1995, we hadn’t
established SLAM as the Student Liberation Action Movement yet. We were still -- people who were interested in
doing that work against all of the [current opportunities?], the various attacks, were still working in terms of part of
CUNY Coalition Against the Cuts, but I can’t actually -- I don’t think there was another name that we were using
specifically. But I came in and | started working with [those?] folks right away. At that time there was [Kim
Wade?], who actually? like, took me under her wing, and Jed Brandt and Christopher Gunderson -- we used to call
him Chris Day -- and Sandra Barros, Lenina Nadal. My sister, Suheir Hammad, was in -- at Hunter -- (inaudible)
had left, but she was still around doing things. My sister Suzan Hammad was still around doing things. So I came
in already doing that work. It’s like I came in also -- (inaudible) they didn’t have a space, but like the Palestinian
Club had a space on campus and historically had been very active and vocal politically, and I came in to Hunter,
like, my first day I had lunch there. It was just -- I knew where I was going, and that was the same with my
involvement with SLAM. So I -- yeah. It was very organic. I just -- my sisters’ friends were all of these people, so
when I came, they all wanted to look out for me and, you know, I was talking to them, I had met a lot of them before
or had heard a lot about a lot of them before. And a lot of them were in spaces that were already in the Thomas
Hunter building, like Jed and Christopher Day, and [Akif?] -- I think [Akif Olell?] was there for my freshman year
when the Spheric offices, which were -- [00:25:00] have you heard of Spheric? Have they told you?
Amaka: Yes. I’ve heard of it, and I’ve -- you know, I’ve talked to folks who’ve mentioned it. Kazembe talked
about it, and -- I haven’t interviewed Jed yet, but we’ve had conversations about it, so yeah.
Sabrine: Great. So Spheric offices is -- if I could like explain to you -- that time a community, 18 years old, it was
literally just like I was going into -- you know in Alice in Wonderland when she looks and sees the cat?
Amaka: Yeah. (laughter)
Sabrine: That’s like what it was -- what it was for me. You know, they’re like all older than me. Even some of them
only by a year or two, but some of them were a lot older than me. And I would just go in there and just shut up and
listen. Just listen to everything that people were talking about. And I didn’t come into college knowing -- I did
know about Mumia, but like a lot -- like, about the MOVE Organization or -- a lot of the more radical things I, I
learned about my first year, was a very sharp political education, was in the Spheric offices. So yeah. And I would
just sit there and -- you know, and then when we started -- like, (inaudible) organizing, I would do stuff. I would be
giving out flyers, all of that good stuff.
Amaka: Okay. Why -- I mean, was it just part of the fact that you were -- you know, like you had older siblings
who were there, and you were just kind of swept up in the political energy, in terms of why you joined SLAM? I
mean, you already mentioned that you were part of the Palestinian Club as well. So I guess my question is, you
know, why, why join SLAM?
Sabrine: I have to tell you, I didn’t feel like I joined it, I felt like it was -- because, because the name didn’t come out
until after I was already a part of it --
Amaka: Right, right, right.
Sabrine: -- I didn’t feel like it was -- I felt like this was a group of people that I was already working with. I can
speak to why I started working with them, and it’s really because I really believed in what we were fighting about.
Amaka: Right.
Sabrine: I spoke earlier about how even when | was in high school and did some of the political things, I felt that
they didn’t speak, to the extent that I wanted it, self-determination and [humanization?]. That’s how I would really
describe my politics. I just believe 100 percent in self-determination. That’s it. Like, I don’t have a nationalism
behind it or -- I just -- everybody determine for yourself. And I never felt that that was addressed in any other realm
until I started meeting people from what later then became SLAM. But it wasn’t SLAM when I started.
Amaka: Right.
Sabrine: You know? But -- yeah. And my sisters, I definitely -- 1, you know, was interested, and because my sisters
were, were there, but the truth is, I, I was the one -- when | actually was doing the most work with SLAM, neither of
them were necessarily involved with SLAM the organization by that time. So definitely my family history had a lot
to do with it, but I also just believed very strongly. I created my own path and my own relationships and was doing
that work because | personally felt very strongly about it.
Amaka: Okay. Between -- so you came in in the fall of ’95, and SLAM really comes out, what, spring °96? So
what was the -- could you talk about it, you know, being there before it was SLAM, what was that process for it to
get to, you know, a name and, you know, somewhat of a structure? Do you remember anything at all about kind of
that process of, you know, for this kind of informal group formally becoming SLAM?
Sabrine: I think it was about running for the -- running for the student government slate. At Hunter, even before I
came, there was this push, I was feeling -- this was 1993, as far as I know -- for people to get into student
government because they recognized that’s where the resources were.
Amaka: Right.
Sabrine: And it was never thought before to take over the entire student government and run under this very
politically radical slate. But the push came when there was a lack of leadership. I think that the students that were
in the student government, going into the student government in 1996, that there was a lot of rumor about them, and
maybe some of them had been found doing improper things with some money, or --I don’t want to misspeak on that,
but I’m almost 95 percent sure that there was [00:30:00] a situation around with that. And people just saw the
potential of having the space and having access to that funding and access to all of the communication abilities that
come. And that’s what actually took us from just being this group around, you know, campus, loosely formatted
group, formulated group, into something that can have a constitution and something that’s going to have bylaws, and
we’re going to actually have a mission of being, like a women of color -- you know, a multicultural organization, but
that was specifically women of color led.
Amaka: Right.
Sabrine: So that was it. And just for honesty, I wasn’t necessarily part of all those conversations. At that point I was
very involved and I was part and privy to some of them, but I feel like I -- you know, I joked, the last interview I
gave, you know, when Irini asked me, like, why student government, and I was like, “Why? Why student
government, Jed? You just told me about it.” Like that decision was very simply made without me there. I
completely supported it once the decision was made, and was happy to be behind it, and campaigned viciously, you
know, as much as I possibly could, but, you know, in just all honesty, I -- that -- this is a position -- this isn’t -- I
wasn’t in the room for.
Amaka: Okay. How, how would you describe the structure of SLAM? I mean, you know, on one hand you have
SLAM, you know, in student government, so that, you know, in some ways, that’s, you know, the structure is, is
there. But, you know, I guess, you know, there were also just kind of, you know, a general membership as well. So
how would you describe the structure? And I guess both, like, formally and informally. Because, you know, some
organizations will have, like, a core of people that are doing a lot of stuff and then, you know, other folks that may
be in and out. How would you describe SLAM as, you know, as a structure? Structurally, how would you describe
it?
Sabrine: Actually, the way that you just described it. We did, we had a core -- oh, I’m sorry. Can | interrupt for one
second?
Amaka: Yeah.
Sabrine: I found that professor’s name. Her name was [Esperanza Martell?].
Amaka: Oh, okay, yeah. I’ve heard -- other people have mentioned her as well. Yeah.
Sabrine: Okay. I just -- I feel like I’m dishonoring her by not being able to bring her up. And then I throw out all
the men and I forget the woman. Like, that’s horrible. (laughter) You know, I recognize when I make those
mistakes. But, you know, colonialism and patriarchy runs deep. (laughter)
Amaka: Yep, yep, you know.
Sabrine: It runs in your brain. And in all fairness, she actually never was my professor. I never took any of her
courses, but she was always there for us as an organization. And the other people I mentioned were actually my
professors. But -- I’m sorry, I’ll go back and answer your question. (laughter) We did exactly the way that you
described, in terms of us having a core membership, and those were the folks that were -- that took on the larger
positions in the student government, who took on the co-presidency and the treasurer. I don’t even remember, in all
honesty, who our first president was, who we ran to be -- it may have been Rachél Laforest. That’s who | think it
was. But I can’t be honest and tell you I know 100 percent. But I also felt that we worked so communally within
the space, that although my position was on the Auxiliary Enterprises board, I was still in the student government
offices every day doing work. And my position only needed me to go to a meeting, maybe like for the entire school
year, not even half a dozen meetings. But I was so in -- in terms of in the school, and then I was part of the larger
student government meeting amongst ourselves. But we are -- at that point -- and it got very intertwined. Student
government and SLAM the political organization kind of became the same thing.
Amaka: Right.
Sabrine: It wasn’t until I think later on that there was more of a distinction, as we started recruiting members that
really not all of them had as radical politics as that initial crew, and so then I think that there was more of a push to
have differences. We had people that were in student government that were very distinctly not SLAM. But it wasn’t
necessarily that much of an issue, | feel.
Amaka: Do you, do you remember any of those people who weren’t -- people that you had in the student
government that weren’t distinctly SLAM?
Sabrine: That weren’t SLAM? I remember there was a sister by the name of [Nefertiti?]. She was, she was in
student government. She had ran as student government. [00:35:00] And when we -- there just wasn’t enough
SLAM members to be able to run a full student government slate, so we had to go to the clubs and find people who
were in, who were in the clubs that were, that were politically minded or interested. So a lot of -- you know, there
was positions that didn’t really have anything to do with the policies that the student government would, would work
on, and a lot of those were taken with people from, you know, other, other groups, but that we were sympathetic to
us.
Amaka: Right, right.
Sabrine: So there was, like, Nefertiti. I remember there was, um, [Mark Grossman?], I think his name was, and a
kid named [Joshua Stern?]. And there were times where they kind of, I think, like flirted with SLAM, but I feel like
both those boys were Zionist, and that was also -- we were really distinctly against that. So there was never like a
full integration of them into SLAM. They still did a lot of the student government work and did a lot of the work
against the budget cuts. So yeah. We were so radical! Like, you really couldn’t just get anybody on board,
especially at the beginning when we think we were our strongest. So in order to be able to fill the slate, I think that
when we kind of solicit people, we talked about the difference between student government and SLAM. But as I
speak to you and I think about really what our day-to-day looked like, there was an administrative side that we kind
of deemed to be the student government side, but all of our political work was so very distinctly SLAM. And we
changed the name. Never before was there a student government that would have the name of a slate on the student
government, but I remember our stamps no longer just said USG, the stamps would always -- because you would
have to stamp flyers and various things for clubs, and like when we would like -- people would -- people would go
to the administration and get tables. There were a variety of things we would have to stamp. And those stamps
always would say, you know, Hunter College USG and the year, ’98-’99, so on and so forth. When SLAM took
office, we got SLAM USG --
Amaka: Oh, that’s what --
Sabrine: -- on our stamps. So we became SLAM USG. We were the -- like we, we completely coopted USG and
sort of made it ours, and we were all about, being, identification. So we didn’t stop, even our -- in the face of
administration and even, you know, dealing with the larger 20,000 students that were at Hunter College, we didn’t
start saying that we were student government; we’d always said we’re SLAM student government, SLAM student
government. We were always SLAM USG. So that was -- so I think that speaks to how we were able to marry the
two. It was kind of like a muddled, no clear boundaries. It was definitely like a free love kind of (laughter)
marriage.
Amaka: Okay. Yeah, that’s really helpful, because, you know, everyone speaks to it being muddled, but, you know,
I think it was helpful the way you were able to kind of distinguish administrative and, you know, SLAM USG and
all that.
Sabrine: Yeah. We tried as much, I think, as we could to own it, to own the student government and make it, make it
an arm of, like, the radical politics of SLAM.
Amaka: Right, right. How -- so, like, along with that, the radical politics of SLAM, like, ideologically, how would
you describe SLAM?
Sabrine: Radical politics. (laughter) this is hard. You know, SLAM was a space where every political ideology
would -- could be discussed and, and conversated about and explored. And it was as far left as I’ve ever seen since
then even. I’ve never seen an organization that just really truly embraced every liberation struggle in the world.
Yeah, we were politically, like, very far left. I think -- you know, and you had different ideologies in terms of we
had black nationalist, we had communist, we had socialist, we had anarchist. So we didn’t have a set ideology
where we could say, like, we’re a socialist organization. We definitely weren’t. We weren’t a communist
organization. But we all were able to fit under, like, the larger umbrella of more radical people of color politics that
embraced self-determination struggles [00:40:00] around the world. That’s the best description I can give.
Amaka: Okay. No, that’s helpful. Demographically, how would you describe SLAM? So, you know, race,
nationality, gender...
Sabrine: Oh, people of color. Thank goodness. My good--. But that -- that’s why -- people -- you know, even
people of color who weren’t necessarily as radical as a lot of the founders of SLAM would still be more interested in
SLAM and would kind of like work into that politics because who wanted to join another NYPIRG? Like (laughter)
if you were a person of color in New York, there’s no representation for us ever, anywhere. And I’ve spoken in the
past about the aesthetic of SLAM, like, how cool this group looked. And we had white members -- Christopher Day,
we had Jed Brandt. We always -- I -- you know, hindsight is 20/20. I always think now about the fact that our white
members were all male and very few -- like, Suzy Subways was, you know -- I feel like she’s the only white woman
member that was involved at Hunter. I know that City College had some white members. But --
Amaka: But it was --
Sabrine: -- you know, a lot of people never -- City College and Hunter College were never necessarily integrated as
one body. And I know that --
Amaka: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And it seems to me as if a lot of the City College white folks were men too.
Sabrine: Yeah, right?
Amaka: Mm-hmm, yeah.
Sabrine: They’re always ready to take over everything. (laughter) [Well, not?] everything, but. But you know, you
know, like, I, I made the joke about forgetting Esperanza Martell’s name, but it’s like, you know, patriarchy and
colonialism run deep. There were white women that were interested, that were interested in SLAM and interested in
doing that work, but I could imagine that it was-- that we weren’t always willing to be accepting. You know, I know
that at City College, some of the sisters that were involved there, some of the white women were involved there,
definitely felt like at Hunter College the women of color were not accepting of them. And I heard that before. You
know, and I, I won’t even -- I was probably one of those (inaudible). I -- you know. And yeah, that was it. But we
were definitely -- you know, we had white people. We were people of color for the vast majority, and then we were
women of color led. We made a decision to actually try to empower into leadership women of color. So we were
training women of color to take on the larger roles. They weren’t stuck always being the ones to answer the phones
and -- which, that work is noble too. All work in movement work is important work, and I really believe that. And
I’m a testament to that, because | always did office work. But, you know, there was a push to train women, you
know, women of color in public speaking, to train them in the administrative or the role in terms of how student
government has to survive in -- how SLAM had to survive in the role of student government and to fit in coalitions.
We were pushed to do that. Any other space that I’ve ever been in, women of color are never encouraged to be the
face of an organization that was multicul-- that had different people on it. If there was a white man in the group, of
course he’s going to be the one that’s going to represent the organization. And we didn’t have that. White men were
-- did represent as well, because, you know, (inaudible). But we, we made a push for women of color to do that
work, to speak on news shows and to (inaudible) sound bites while giving interviews, doing protests, to be the MCs
for the protests. Those were all very calculated decisions that folks who -- our insistence that we remain true to our
principles of being women of color led and being the slate that we empowered women of color.
Amaka: Right. So in terms -- you know, because | think that’s one of the really dope things that I’ve, you know,
taken from the interviews and the research that I’ve done on SLAM, the fact that it was women of color led -- what
did that mean in regards to -- | mean, because you’ve spoken to it a little bit, but, you know. Oftentimes when
you’re in these organizations that are, like, multicultural or, you know, where you have just a lot of diversity within
the group, you know, sometimes that leads to like, you know, some, some of the white men need to be told to, like,
stand down sometimes, [00:45:00] and, you know, I mean, there’s different processes around, like, allowing for folks
to take leadership and have a voice. Oftentimes that means that people who are used to having leadership need to,
you know, sit back and listen sometimes. So what -- I mean --
Sabrine: Yeah, that was hard for them.
Amaka: Were there a -- like, what was -- what was -- what did that look like in SLAM? Like, were those
conversations had often, were people told to, like, you know, stand down? I mean, were there --
Sabrine: Yes.
Amaka: Yeah, mm-hmm.
Sabrine: They were. White men were often told to be quiet. (laughs) And they were -- for some of them it was
easier. You know, you also have to be a certain white man to be willing to be in an organization like SLAM.
Amaka: That’s real.
Sabrine: So later on, like, the people that I came up with when -- the people I -- the white men I came up with were
Jed Brandt and Christopher Day, right, they were there from the beginning, and they definitely served as mentors, I
think, to a lot of us. And in that capacity I felt had -- they were more vocal, because they always taught -- you know,
(inaudible), and they both had very radical politics and changed the direction (inaudible) women. But then later on
when they were -- when we had other white men in the organization that came into an organization that already had
this system of women leadership in place, those were very specific kind of men, like [Joseph Halen?], (inaudible),
(John McCann-Doyle?], that understood that they had to, like, be, be quiet and sit back. And John McCann-Doyle --
all -- you know, like, all three of them, like John McCann-Doyle, he would sit in a meeting and he would just not
even try to talk sometimes. (laughs) He was okay with, with that. I never remember having, you know, to have a
conversation like, “Okay, now let a woman talk” with him. But we would do that when we would have our SLAM
meetings, and I remember, like, we would be sitting around, and where we would have like a speakers’ list, like who
wanted to say something. We would look for, like, let’s get, let’s get a woman. You already spoke, Mr. White Man,
like, no, we want, we want women to address us, we want people of color to address us, we want older people to
address us, we want younger people to address us. We were always very well aware, which is why in our meetings,
you know, in some spaces which would have taken a half hour took six hours for us. (laughs) We were so aware.
But yeah, we would tell white men, like, “No, that’s it. You don’t get to talk right now.” Like, “Now, you have to
listen.” And we would use that word, like -- those words, like “your privilege and your ownership over this space
and over conversation, you have to check that,” like, “Here’s me. I just want to make sure that so-and-so checks
their privilege, because they’re talking a lot. (laughter) There’s other people here that” -- we would say stuff like
that. And we could -- and, you know, there was conflict around it sometimes, but I feel like we were always very
honest about change what it was. Like, I wasn’t silencing something, to silence white men because of anything
personal, but I felt like we would have a discussion of how important it was for them to see what our world looks
like every single day and how we’re always silenced. Because if you’re in this organization with all of us, you’re in
it for one reason, but you have no idea what our world actually looks like. So yeah. And, you know, (inaudible) at
that time, and I think that in general, we got it right.
Amaka: Okay. So you’ve -- you know, you mentioned it a little bit, and I kind of have it roundabout in one of the
questions that I wrote out, but like, you know, folks have talked about, like, SLAM is just like fly, you know what
I’m saying, like just presenting --
Sabrine: Yeah, we were.
Amaka: -- itself as fly, like there was, you know, like art and poetry and, you know, culture, and, like, Kai would
like, you know, decorate the office, and it was just fly.
Sabrine: Yeah.
Amaka: Could you just speak to that a little bit?
Sabrine: We really were. We were just the coolest thing. That’s what I was saying, like, people even maybe
associated more politically with NYPIRG wouldn’t want to join them when they saw us. They’re like, “What?
They’re so whack. (laughter) Like, what are these folks?” Our chant line when we got into rallies. People would be
like, “Can we march with you? Can we march with you?” Can you imagine? We were definitely like the rock
stars. It’s so funny to think of that. And also, especially now when you think of, like, you know, reality TV and
celebrity worship as it exists, like, post-2005, [00:50:00] I feel like, it’s such a different animal, but back then, within
the young, the youth activist community in New York -- and there were a lot of groups coming out at that time.
CAAAYV, which was an organization, | think it’s Center for Asian -- Against Asian American Violence.
Amaka: Violence, yeah.
Sabrine: Right? And they were -- a lot of groups. We worked with [IEC?], we worked with a lot of different
groups, a lot of the different colleges. Even if they didn’t have SLAM, they would have like one or two radical
groups on campus, you know, like -- about things like political prisoners and things like that. But we were the -- I
feel like SLAM as an organization was the gold standard because we were large and our access to resources gave us
an opportunity to get things [simple?] (inaudible), like T-shirts made (inaudible) on it, so when we roll into a space,
we all dressed the same and we all, you know, would have a chant sheet that had these chants that were working off
of very relevant present-day hip hop. You know. It was like that some from DMX: “Stop, drop, shut ’em down,
open up shop.” Remember that song?
Amaka: Yeah, yeah. (laughs)
Sabrine: Yeah. We did a chant to that for Mumia. And then we had the flip side of that because then Kai and
Ashanti would teach us old, like, Black Panther chants, and so you -- yeah. We would -- there was just like, I feel
like, a look, and a lot of people saw this look. And I think what also helped us, we were very organized. For young
kids, we were organized. We -- when we were going in to, you know, be loud and boisterous, we did that, and then
when it was time for us to be quiet, we did that too. And then when we marched, we knew, you know, we could do a
strict formation. So we didn’t look like this just, like, messy group of ragtag kids; we looked like a -- at that time
and space, for our ages -- a very sophisticated machine. And I -- and yeah. We were so cool. Like, our poetry
readings. Now I can reminisce, I’m like, “Yeah, we were awesome.” | always tell my kids about SLAM. Like,
“Mommy, when you were in SLAM.” I’m like, “Yeah.” I think my dad can’t. (laughter)
Amaka: Word.
Sabrine: But yeah. Yeah, I think, like, our aesthetic had a lot to do with it, our, our popularity as an organization.
Amaka: Right. So SLAM had -- so SLAM was involved with like mad different activities. You have like direct
action stuff, this political education, student government stuff. I was going through -- you know that there’s like
SLAM archives at NYU Tamiment
Sabrine: Yeah.
Amaka: So I was going through some of those a while ago and, like, I was seeing, like, grant applications to like the
North Star Fund and --
Sabrine: (inaudible), yes.
Amaka: -- all type of stuff. So, like, what, what activities were you most involved in in SLAM, and what, what do
you see as like significant about the work that SLAM did?
Sabrine: Okay, the first part. I -- the campaigns that I worked on the most were definitely -- first and foremost was
all of the CUNY stuff. So very specifically, anything that was around the budget cuts, the tuition hikes, the end of
financial aid, and the end of remedial education, all of those access to education, quality education issues, it was
something that | was always on board with and always very strongly involved in. And that wasn’t the case with
everybody. Some people really didn’t do that much of that work. When we evolved into an organization that did a
lot of other projects, some folks, you know, would be in SLAM and barely did any of that work. So, you know,
were doing a lot of the other things. But for me, the, the education stuff was always very important. It really is the
reason why I joined, you know, was all of that access to education. And then specifically, other than that -- so that
was (inaudible) from 1996 -- I mean, from 1995 to 1999 when I graduated, there was never a time that that wasn’t an
issue, right, education. It wasn’t like it was one campaign that we picked up and then dropped off later on.
Amaka: Right. [00:55:00]
Sabrine: But -- I’m trying to think. So I was involved in that. And then I did a lot of the Mumia Abu-Jamal work,
about freeing Mumia Abu-Jamal. When we -- you know, when we organized Mumia -- organized along with other
groups to get people (inaudible) rallies, that was something that I think I was front and center on. | did a lot of that
work. I did -- I traveled with other women from SLAM, and we worked against the sanctions in Iraq. That was
something that I, that I was invested in.
Amaka: Can you speak more specifically to that project? Because | think I saw in the archives, like, pictures from
that time when you guys were traveling, and there isn’t a lot, like, written, so 1 couldn’t really get a lot from the
archive with regards to what the actual work was. But I did see, like -- I think I saw some letters in regards to
funding for the travel, and then some pictures, but could you speak more generally to, to that project and who you
traveled with and what that work was?
Sabrine: For sure. I didn’t -- I don’t know if the people that you’ve spoken with (inaudible) attended -- do you know
who went on the trip? No one has shared that?
Amaka: No.
Sabrine: Because I don’t know, maybe they don’t want... (laughs) (inaudible) international trip, and I [would have?]
-- [have been open about my -- what’s happened. When I came back, the FBI questioned me, but maybe I can reach
out to them and let them know, and then I can provide you with their names. You know what I mean? But I went
with some other women from, from, from SLAM. And at that point, we had already sent people to Mexico, to
UNAM. The national university in Mexico City had had like this epic strike around that time, maybe in 1998 and
1999, and it was really a very democratic people’s movement. And we had already sent people there. And we were
very vocal about international politics at that point as well. Very distinctly anti-Zionist, pro-Palestinian, very
distinctly, like, anti-statehood for Puerto Rico, anti-col-- like, colonialization of Puerto Rico. We had, like, that
international understanding, and we would always say, like, a globalist perspective. It’s not just about others, about
outside. No, this means something to us.
Amaka: Right.
Sabrine: It, it -- we made those connections. I remember one time, like, Christopher gave me the flyer -- this was
later on, but when they were gearing up for the war, the second war in Iraq, and he made a flyer that spoke about
funding for the war in comparison to funding to our schools and what that looked like. And it was a great flyer
because it actually made those connections for people. And (inaudible) -- any time -- because now I’m involved in
my children’s school, in the PTA. (inaudible) [I must do?], but -- but, you know, whenever they’re like, “Oh, we
don’t have the funding,” I’m like, “Yeah, because they’re dropping bombs. Of course we don’t have the funding.”
Like, I have that understanding. But at that point, we were making those connections for the larger body. So when
we went to Iraq, we went with the IEC, the International (inaudible). The, the trip was led by former US Attorney
General Ramsey Clark, and it was the tenth year of the Iraq sanctions. So it was in 2000; they started in 1990. And
we went to just, you know, witness, basically, the devastation that happened. And we went and we brought medical
supplies and school supplies. I think over $1 million worth in terms of, like, the larger collective body --
Amaka: Wow.
Sabrine: -- of medical supplies and school supplies to Iraq. And it was. It was an international civil disobedience,
which is interesting because the whole time that I was in SLAM -- at that point I had already graduated, so the whole
time I was a student at Hunter in SLAM, we had done a lot of actions. I also did a lot of work around police
brutality. I have to -- that -- yeah, that was like one of my other, like, like, projects. But we had done so many
things where we did civil disobediences [01:00:00] and direct actions where we would -- if there was a chance of us
getting arrested. And I came -- my father would kill me if I got arrested, Amaka. Like, you know, all of the political
activity I’m telling you about, I also want to say, like, half of that -- 95 percent of that was done in secret, because
even though my father was political and raised us to be political. He was still, like, a very much patriarchal, like,
typical Arab man, and if he knew -- if he knew -- if he heard me at these rallies, like, running through the streets
chanting about burning Cuomo or Pataki or whatever fool we were talking about, or Giuliani at that time, he would
have like locked me in a room forever. (laughter) So, so I, I had never, I had never done a civil disobedience where I
was guaranteed arrest the four -- the entire four years that I was in SLAM. And that was actually something that
when we would talk about privilege and you have that conversation about white men being in SLAM, that’s where
we encouraged white men to take the lead. We were like, “Oh, you want to be part of the struggle? Go ahead, and
get arrested.” Like, there was a very political discussion about that. It wasn’t haphazard. Like, we, we understood
people were immigrants, they didn’t have citizenship, people had green cards --
Amaka: Yep.
Sabrine: -- people didn’t have green cards, the people were their family’s sole breadwinner. You know, for some
people it just wasn’t an option. For me, you know, I felt like if | would have gotten arrested, then I would have not
been able to continue my work in SLAM.
Amaka: Right, right.
Sabrine: But then what is so interesting is, like, I didn’t want to get arrested at, like, a CUNY rally, but then they
freaking go to Iraq on like an international civil disobedience where -- it was like two years of jail -- like, up to five
years of jail time (laughs) and like $100,000 fine. I don’t know what I was thinking. When I think, I’m like, that’s
buggin’, it’s crazy. But that’s what we -- that’s what that trip was. And when we came back, we did have a lot of
difficulty. We came back -- the trip was in January of 2000. When we came back, it was like at the beginning of
this new onslaught of, of attacks against CUNY. So we did try to do some work. We did some of that, and we did a
-- some organizing. I was part of a lot of report-backs, and 1 worked with IEC for a while about it. But the truth is,
is that work I’ve swept up under this new frenzy of dissent. They wanted to attack again, and it was just -- it was
getting harder. We lost a lot of our core members, and the newer members coming in, you know, wonderful,
wonderful people who just didn’t have as much experience, you know. So that was that.
Amaka: Did those core members that you lost, did they just -- did they graduate, or what -- you said that you lost a
lot of core members at that time. Where did they go?
Sabrine: Yeah, a lot of them -- yeah, a lot of them graduated. Some, some folks moved away. But a lot of folks
graduated out and had to get full-time jobs.
Amaka: Yeah.
Sabrine: You know, we’re not a fraternity; like, no one pays our bills. The majority of us were supporting ourselves.
Even me, when I was in SLAM, like, I could live at home, but I, | worked in my dad’s store. I was literally -- like, I
was in Flatbush on, like, Saturday, and then on Sunday I had another job, I had another part-time job in the Staten
Island Mall. And then, like, my senior year I was student teaching and working in my dad’s shop and still had
another -- and, and was still working in student government as an actual paid employee. So we were all -- we were
all struggling. There was this point in our lives -- some people had children. You know, they had to, you know, take
care of that for a while. So there was a time where, you know, the initial members -- the new members became core
members, right, but the initial members of SLAM, we just -- they weren’t around as much. Kai left. Like, when Kai
left, I felt like even though she wasn’t there from the beginning, she was there as soon as we took over student
government. So she -- or the year after. I feel like the first -- maybe she was hired within the first year, not all the
way at the beginning of the year, but either towards the middle or end, or maybe in the second year that we had
student government. But she quickly, [01:05:00] quickly became our glue in so many respects. I’m sure you have --
you can’t have heard anything about SLAM, right, without talking about Kai.
Amaka: Yeah.
Sabrine: I can’t imagine anyone didn’t mention her.
Amaka: Everyone at Hunter’s mentioned her, yeah.
Sabrine: Yeah. So she was -- you could imagine -- like, how do you go into a house and talk about a family without
talking about Mom, right? So, you know, definitely. I think that when she left, it was ha-- it, it -- we didn’t have a --
a chunk of us left with her, right? A lot of it is like geography or just the way things worked out, but it for sure did
work out that way.
Amaka: Do you remember who took her position after she left?
Sabrine: Me. (laughs)
Amaka: Okay. Clearly you do! (laughs)
Sabrine: (inaudible) she was off-- she added me as an office assistant. She hired me as an office assistant the year
before she left. I think that was my, my junior year, maybe, or my senior year. Or I think I had been working there
two years by the time she made me... And then when she went to leave she, she hired me as office manager. And I
think that (inaudible) as an office manager I did, you know, a decent job, and a lot of the younger folks, I brought in
a lot of the younger folks and tried to mentor them. But I’m not Kai! Like, at that point -- I was like 22, 23 -- the
only movement I was a veteran of was SLAM. Kai came up -- she had been in the Black Panthers, she had -- like,
or affiliated with them -- the BLA -- (inaudible) had history! 1, you know, a 23-year-old girl can’t compare to that.
(laughs) You know, and all of us, like, we all had history that we had all had, you know, struggles and things like
that, but there was something that her and Ashanti -- I’m sure you heard about Ashanti --
Amaka: Yeah.
Sabrine: -- at that time they were partnered -- that they brought that just couldn’t be... You know, there, there is
magic to our, to like, the wisdom that our elders bring us. And she probably was the age I am now, so the fact, like,
that I [didn’t?] call her an (inaudible), you know, but were just maybe a little bit older than me. But when she left, I
felt like it was harder, maybe, to maintain a lot of the more radical. We still did the work, we still did a lot of the
USG work, but that’s where somehow SLAM always won. If I could say it like that, right. Like at the beginning
was between SLAM and USG, SLAM won, like. Towards the end, USG would win. And I think that that’s what
made it -- that’s maybe where a lot of people were a little more disenchanted and how [that it?] has shifted a little bit
Amaka: Well --
Sabrine: -- and it was harder for people.
Amaka: And also, I guess, you know, I guess losing open admissions had to have been extremely demoralizing as
well.
Sabrine: Yeah, like we lost the battle. Like, what -- and that’s what we had initially started. Even though I will tell
you that by the time a lot of that was happening and then like the renewed attack against CUNY, the people that
were involved were, were new, so it didn’t affect them like someone like me or maybe Rachél, who had been a part
of it -- because Rachél stayed around just as long as I did. A lot of the other folks had already been -- I was like one
of the longer, longer-standing members because after my four years of education I still continued to work in SLAM,
which wasn’t necessarily the case with most people. But it was very -- it was very demoralizing I think in the larger
scope. In the day-to-day we still felt like there was still so much work to be done that we couldn’t dwell. And we --
you know, and we didn’t. Like, come on. Like, you know, while you’re talking about, like Israel, like the politics of
Israel, you don’t lose just like an international Goli-- you know, Goliath, right. And, you know, the military arm and
all of that. So at some point we almost had to be like, mm, yeah, Giuliani, you’re nothing. Do you what I mean?
Amaka: Yeah, yeah, mm-hmm.
Sabrine: One time, you know, questions, like, “Do you support” -- like when the FBI questioned me (inaudible),
like, oh shit, what did I do to myself -- excuse my language. (laughter)
Amaka: I’m good.
Sabrine: But I’m like, no, I don’t, but what [01:10:00] about the people, but they didn’t -- they don’t care. Yeah.
Amaka: So SLAM was on, you know -- I mean, really, to, to my perception it seems like really just City College,
but I guess SLAM being on other campuses, like, what was your perception of the other chapters in comparison to
Hunter? Like, how were they different?
Sabrine: I feel like Hun-- I feel -- I know that there was something at Brooklyn College, right, and at LaGuardia
Community College.
Amaka: Mm-hmm. And City College.
Sabrine: And City College, yes. I meant like other than them. So LaGuardia was Slab. Have you introduced --
have you interviewed Slab?
Amaka: I haven’t interviewed him, but I’m in contact with him.
Sabrine: Oh my God, did you know he actually changed his name? We didn’t know him as Vlad, and he changed
his name to Slab because we were a student-organized action movement. And | don’t know if this is true, but he
insisted he changed it to Slab because he’s student liberation action brother. (laughter) He’s so dedicated. (laughter)
I love him. But we -- I think that -- I think that other chapters of SLAM, in comparison -- maybe in comparison to
Hunter were very small. Right? On their campuses I feel like they still did a lot of good work. In 2004 or 2005, I
was working for the union, the union, the Professional Staff Congress as an organizer, and the union is a union that
represents the faculty and staff at all CUNYs, at all CUNY schools. And I was at LaGuardia Community College,
literally looking into the cafeteria and saw -- and this is like 2004, 2005 -- saw a sticker that said, like, “LaGuardia
SLAM.”
Amaka: Oh wow.
Sabrine: Like, it was so crazy. Like, again, like this is before like camera phones were [fancy?]. I don’t even know
if I had a cell phone at that time. But it was like, you know, it -- they have it -- everyone had a presence at their own
school. I wasn’t on those other campuses, so it’s hard for me to really gauge what they were able to do in terms of
like on their campus --
Amaka: Right.
Sabrine: -- but I know that for us, it was important to us to have people at other CUNYs that we could work with.
And even other schools, too, like the College of Staten Island later on, we were working with -- there was a
newspaper there called the Voice, and there was a brother there named [Aman Said?], and his wife now -- they’re
married and have children -- her name then, they were just college students, was [Renee Marhang?], Marhang. And
they weren’t part of SLAM, but they were radicals, and so when we needed to do CUNY-wide movements, we
contacted them.
Amaka: Right.
Sabrine: So there were people that even though they didn’t have SLAM, had, had similar politics and became our
partners in crime. But yeah. But, you know, City College -- have people talked about like when City College
became a chapter and all of what was happening then?
Amaka: Well, I’ve only -- I haven’t really talked to that many people from City College. Later on today I’m going
to interview somebody, and | interviewed Brad Sigal. From what I’ve heard, it seems as if the City College chapter
was way more masculine. Like | don’t really hear a lot of -- like when people mention people that were in that
chapter, it tends to be all men. Like, it seems like just a very masculine chapter. It seems smaller, and it also seemed
as if because they never got student government, the conditions there were just very different there in regards to like
their vulnerability to attack.
Sabrine: Yes. thats so true for that space, the Shakur/Morales center.
Amaka: Right, right.
Sabrine: Which recently, just recently got shut down again.
Amaka: Yeah. They, they took it back. They’re trying to -- they -- I think they’re using the room for, like -- | mean,
because it just shows you like, you know, the transformation of CUNY, but they’re using it as like, I don’t know,
career development center or something ridiculous like that.
Sabrine: Yeah. And it -- but you know, at City College -- and I’m sharing this because I feel like since you’re
talking about the larger movement -- I’m not just trying to share like the SLAM gossip, right, but I feel like if you’re
going to have this understanding of how we operated, you needed to understand some of our conflicts too.
Amaka: Yeah.
Sabrine: So when I was coming up in SLAM at the beginning, one of my very first rallies that I took the lead in
[01:15:00] was they arrested an activist by the name of David Suker. Have you heard of him at City College?
Amaka: Yeah, I’ve talked to him. I haven’t inter-- I’m probably going to interview him next week, but yeah,
mm-hmm.
Sabrine: Yeah, right on. He -- (inaudible) -- and I still remember the chant we, we were chanting, like, “I am, you
are, we’re all David Suker.” | still remember it so vividly. But they had arrested him because I -- I think he was the
one that they said jumped up on the table during the board of trustees meeting. So -- so there was like this group of
-- and I think that you’re right -- male, white male activists at City College. So then, Amaka, after they kind of like
fizzle down and there was a point where it was just very clear, Hunter was the slam, like was SLAM. Right? So
there was -- so maybe after ’97 it had died down at City College. There were still radical students that we connected
with, but we didn’t necessarily see them as SLAM anymore. They didn’t necessarily identify as SLAM. And then I
want to say in 2000, [Hank Williams?] restarted a SLAM chapter at Hunter College [sic?], along with -- I’m trying
to think of the names of the women. There’s a woman there by the name of [Sydney Jordan Cooley?], and she was
-- and there were -- there was another woman, woman. Maybe when you -- maybe if you speak to people that were
part of City College, they’re remember their names, you know.
Amaka: I’m interviewing Hank later on today, so I'll ask him.
Sabrine: Oh, right on. Well, Hank, [Mr.?] Hank started a charter at City College, but there was not -- he just kind of
was like, “Okay, I want to start a new SLAM charter, and it’s going to be at City College.” And I remember at
Hunter’s SLAM, there was a lot of conflict about that. And even, you know, years later, a lot of people felt that he
just, you know, took our name. So I feel like, you know, City College SLAM had to -- so when I talked about the
white women, | feel like I’m talking about the second version. So I feel like now maybe that helps with the picture.
Like, I hopefully offered a little clarity, because there was -- there were like two waves of SLAM at City College.
There was the initial organic one that came out of CUNY Coalition Against the Cuts and was working with Hunter
and were together and doing all of that stuff, and then when Hunter’s SLAM came up, they of course -- you know,
that, I think, was more of a citywide agreement. That’s why there was someone at Brooklyn College and at
LaGuardia and City. But then once those SLAM chapters were gone, for whatever reason, you know, one or two or
three or four years later, he comes, Hank Williams comes by and says, “I want to start another SLAM chapter.” And
a lot of people weren’t happy with it. Yeah, a lot of people felt like at that point they had (inaudible), like, we had
[just done?] -- we’re like, “Why don’t you just start another organization? Why do you want it to be SLAM?” You
know, and I think that that also speaks to by the time he came around, we looked different. So even like the
understanding of having something that may -- that could have maybe -- I know this is super-ambitious -- look like
SNCC, right, and was all over the South, all over the country, the new -- a lot of the folks that were in SLAM at that
point and that were part of the decision-making process were maybe -- | don’t want to -- I don’t want to say in any
way that sounds wrong, just I kind of feel like we looked different. We looked different, which maybe I think
contributed maybe to part of the conflict.
Amaka: Okay.
Sabrine: Did I just confuse you more? | don’t know --
Amaka: Yeah, I’m not -- I’m not exactly sure what you mean by looking different. I mean, I know that there was --
I guess --
Sabrine: They weren’t as radical at that point. That’s what I mean. Like, yeah, like we weren’t as radical. At one
point I made the very bad joke that we started to look like a people of color NYPIRG. (laughter) But, but -- because
they were -- you know what, they were -- all throughout college, I have to say, like people knew it, they were like
my punching bag because they just upset me so much. | just felt like they were the epitome of, like, white-privilege
liberalism.
Amaka: Right.
Sabrine: Right, like the -- like those white-privilege liberals that really don’t do anything for you. And so I always
had it out for NYPIRG. I was -- any time I had jokes, I was cracking them against NYPIRG. So when | -- there was
a point, and [01:20:00] it was specifically when I came back. | had lived overseas for two years, and when I came
back, I did come back and say, like, what happened? Like, what happened? (inaudible), you know, where’s like the
radical politics behind it? They had lost some of it. That’s what I mean.
Amaka: Okay, all right. Do you -- are there any, like, significant -- | want to say, like, significant actions or, or kind
of experience that you haven’t spoken to yet that you feel like you should speak to in regards to SLAM? So like, I
mean --
Sabrine: Have people spoken about Amadou Diallo and the (inaudible) street?
Amaka: Not really, so if you can speak to that.
Sabrine: Yeah. When Amadou Diallo was shot 41 times by the police murderers, we were devastated as a
community. It was so personal to us, and it was something that we hadn’t experienced before. We didn’t -- you
know, we didn’t have a Malcolm, we didn’t have a Martin, we didn’t live in those days --
Amaka: Right.
Sabrine: -- where we had the leaders. Like, we had Al Sharpton, and most of thought he was a joke, right? So --
and this man was not a political activist, but he spoke -- his story spoke to us because we felt that it just exemplified
the brutality in which, like, the ruling class treated us, our people. Like, we felt like a brother had died, like, our
brother. It was very hard. And we went to basically like a Day of Rage, right? Like, the verdict came out. I --
[END OF FIRST AUDIO FILE]
Sabrine: -- protest that you see around the world, where for that day -- and I don’t -- you know, I’m sure that there
were a million political decisions made about what would be allowed and what would not be allowed, but that was
the day that we took the streets out of rage. And we all almost got arrested like three times that day. Like we all --
these are like the running away from -- like, I ran away from cops that day. We threw stuff into the street. We
blocked traffic. We -- in terms of just like an action or a situation, they -- you know, and then there were -- there
were definitely formulated planned actions. We had -- a lot of SLAM members got arrested. They closed I want to
say the Brooklyn Bridge. They’d stand in traffic with a lot, with like a citywide coalition of people.
Amaka: | think I read about that. I think there -- yeah.
Sabrine: Yeah. We (inaudible) -- 1 wanted -- like, we were on fire. Like we as a people and a community were on
fire. And it was just like so emotional and tearful and -- it was -- that felt -- like, I’1l never forget those days. Those
were, you know, I remember being -- you know, the cops like telling us to stay on the sidewalk, and that’s like the
first time like I actually had the nerve to like curse out a cop. I was so angry, and I like -- I cursed at him, like, “F
you, you’re not going to tell me what to do” -- like so angry. And had like people, you know, people like pulling
me, “Shut up, Sabrine,” like. But then two minutes later the same people cursing at the same cop. And then like
literally, like, taking, you know, taking like garbage cans, like, and going into the streets. That’s not -- that day, like,
we didn’t allow them to pen us in. Like, we refused. As a -- as a political organization, SLAM consistently and
always felt like they were getting penned in by the cops at protests and rallies. There were some times where the
decision was made to stay within just (inaudible). Maybe we didn’t have enough people to (inaudible). We were
smart, you know what I mean? People don’t always think of that stuff. But it was -- we definitely challenged it very
often. And I think that was the first day -- like, it wasn’t even a political decision. Like, we were all just so filled
with anger and hurt that we, we didn’t -- like, anything the police said, we literally just did the opposite. Yeah, that
was, that was rough. And then (inaudible) I remember in terms of like that protest was large, SLAM had -- it was
kind of like the first time that SLAM did something that was national, on a national scale, that we played such a
large role in. We, we only were responsible for bringing up the majority of people that were coming from New York
on buses to that rally. We brought hundreds of people to that rally. So that was something that -- there were a lot.
We were part of so many things. You know, and then smaller, more artistic things, like having papier-maché, like,
pifiata of, like, Giuliani, (inaudible) beat. (laughter) There was a lot of that stuff. Does that answer your question, or
were you --
Amaka: Yeah.
Sabrine: -- (inaudible) something else?
Amaka: No, no, no, that totally answers it. Do you remember, because you mentioned it just now, but like some of
the organizations, some of the community organizations that you guys were in coalition with, that you guys would
do, you know, rallies, programming, whatever, with?
Sabrine: Yeah. We (inaudible) coalition against police brutality. We worked with them. We worked with CAAAV.
We worked with, like the -- I feel like it’s just like (inaudible), but (inaudible--addiction?) Organization. We worked
with GUPS, the General Union of Palestinian Students. We worked with -- oh, citywide, we worked with everybody
everywhere in the city. Malcolm X, MXG, like Malcolm X Grassroots Movement. Who -- I just feel like -- there
was also that -- I’m trying to think of the organization that Kamau Franklin and [Amanda Ranier?] were part of
(inaudible).
Amaka: Well, Kamau was in MXG, but was it also Student Power -- Student Power, something like that?
Sabrine: Yeah, SPM, Student Power Movement. Thank you! Have you interviewed Kamau?
Amaka: I’m actually interviewing him on Friday. And I was, I was in MXG for a few years, so I know a lot of --
Sabrine: Oh, (inaudible). Oh, you know Lumumba Bandele?
Amaka: Mm-hmm.
Sabrine: I love Lumumba! | love -- he [00:05:00] -- I, I genuine-- he actually, when I came into Hunter, he wasn’t at
Hunter when I came, but he always still looks out for me. I love Lumumba. | still (inaudible) say he’s like my
Facebook friend. He’s such a wonderful human being. But yeah.
Amaka: Yeah, it’s interesting for me, because on one hand it’s like, you know, for the dissertation, you know, I’m
very focused on, like, talking to SLAM people, but one of the things that most got me interested in SLAM generally
was just this era with all these organizations, you know --
Sabrine: Yeah.
Amaka: -- and just, just, you know, the collaboration. This is a time in which a lot of the organizations that are still
doing work are really emerging, and, like, just the networks of like organizing, and so --
Sabrine: Yeah. And the family, the family of it, like the community. Like, MXG was part of our community, right?
And yeah. And then, you know -- do you know (inaudible)? Maybe because my sister came out in that world of,
like, poetry and spoken word at Hunter, but there were like all of those artists that later then became, like, [Willie
Frogomo?] and [Tony Mezina?] and Asha Bandele and [Picala?] and (inaudible) and, and all of these folks that were
part of that movement, that artistic movement, you know, at the Blue Moon Café (inaudible). They all had, you
know -- they all in some ways associated with these different organizations. They were like our artistic arm of the
revolution.
Amaka: Right.
Sabrine: Right? That’s crazy, yeah.
Amaka: Yeah, so I mean, you know, | have -- you know, for my dissertation and just my timeline with that, like, I
have to keep it very focused, but | just feel like for a longer-term project, | just feel like there’s just something really
compelling about that period that isn’t necessarily, like, written down, in terms of all of these people and
organizations in relationship to each other. You know?
Sabrine: You know who -- have you seen -- there is an, a documentary about Bed-Study, Brooklyn, during that time.
Have you seen that documentary?
Amaka: No, what -- about Bed-Stuy around that time?
Sabrine: About Bed-- yeah.
Amaka: Uh-uh.
Sabrine: It’s -- Amaka, I’m going to look it up and see if I can give you at least the name or try to --
Amaka: Okay.
Sabrine: I -- it just speaks about -- it speaks about kind of like the black arts movement in that time, but it’s so funny
because all of the people that they mention, like [Howlet Clouise, Ertriz?] Mos Def, Erica (inaudible). If we weren’t
fans -- we were all fans, but then also, like, we had, you know, Dead Prez perform at our street fairs. They
performed at Hunter -- at student -- like, what?!
Amaka: Right. And like Black August, you know.
Sabrine: Yeah. And like Mos Def performed -- Mos Def performed, and I think he emceed one of (inaudible)
concerts.
Amaka: Was it -- was the documentary Brooklyn Boheme?
Sabrine: Oh yes, it was.
Amaka: Yeah. I’ve seen that. That’s -- I mean, it’s -- that’s interesting because it’s, it’s mostly about Fort Greene,
but it kind of --
Sabrine: Oh, it is Fort Greene. You’re right, I’m sorry.
Amaka: Yeah. But, I mean, it speaks to Bed-Stuy a little bit, but it’s mostly Fort Greene. And | think -- I mean, for
me, | liked it, but it’s a piece, you know what I’m saying? It’s just a piece.
Sabrine: Yeah.
Amaka: And so I’m -- | just -- it just --
Sabrine: It’s a piece of that story.
Amaka: Right, right. And I’m just interested in seeing something that’s almost more holistic, that kind of speaks to
like the different relationships between, you know, artists and movement folks and different organizations and
different movements, and -- yeah, all of that. (laughs) So --
Sabrine: My God, yeah.
Amaka: So maybe for a long-term project. Maybe, maybe (laughter) down the line. I have to -- I want to get my
degree first and finish.
Sabrine: That’s true. Right on.
Amaka: Okay. So I only have a few, just a few more questions. In terms of the perception of SLAM by the student
body at Hunter, did that change over time? Like, do you --
Sabrine: Yeah.
Amaka: Okay, can you speak to that?
Sabrine: I felt that -- I felt that at the beginning -- we always had our haters, but as CUNY policy changed and a lot
of the people who would naturally lean toward supporting us, who were disenfranchised people of color, were then
-- were, like, the working poor, they were collectively shut out of CUNY, right?
Amaka: Mm-hmm.
Sabrine: So over the years, slowly, as the remediation policies and the cuts to financial aid and the increase in
tuition, as they took hold on what CUNY looked like -- especially Hunter, because Hunter was considered one of
like the flag-- like the flagship schools of CUNY, so there was this [00:10:00] push to turn it into, like, Ivy League --
Ivy League is kind of a joke, but to definitely take it out of the hands of the people. There was a point where, you
know, CUNY looked different, Hunter looked different, and you could tell because people were not stopping by at
our tables. It became an uphill battle. There was a new president at Hunter, her name was Jennifer Raab, she gave
us a really hard time. And yeah, we definitely lost towards the end a lot of our support base.
Amaka: You know, SLAM, for a student organization, had a really -- like a relatively long lifespan for a student
organization. Why do you think that SLAM lasted as long as it did?
Sabrine: Because we had a space. Yeah, we had a space and we had resources, and so even though | think that when
members graduated -- so what would normally happen, if we were a regular organization, like, you know, one set of
members would graduate, and then that’s it, they were gone; there was nothing to hold the organization together
anymore. You know, there were like one or two or three stragglers left, and then so the organization would just
dissipate. Because we had the student government offices and those resources, we were able to recruit people and
we were able to get people who were initially involved in student government to do SLAM. And so I think that
that’s part of the reason why, you know, we lasted longer and we -- that group definitely did so much important
work. I never want to sound as if I dismiss the hard, the really hard work that that later group did -- which I was a
part of, to an extent -- but it, it was, it had already started looking different, and it kind of like prolonged the death of
SLAM, I feel like, and made it less (inaudible) and less just going out one shot. It took a couple of years where we
kept on like revving up, like before the elections in the spring, there’d be like this big push, and then we -- there was
just an onslaught of attacks. Like, Jennifer Raab was vicious with SLAM. She, she -- it -- I think she was
responsible for them losing the student government. You know? And so -- and then there was a new -- you know, a
whole new set of attacks against CUNY. And the school looks different. So in 1995 when I walked in, I was
literally getting people to sign petitions for Mumia Abu-Jamal, right, and I would be able to stop people, and I would
tell you, the majority of people, or close to majority, would sign the petition. You know, those kids that had to
organize in 2000 and -- oh my God, after September 11th, like the people that organized after that thing, you know,
our school looked different. We had this whole new white community in our school that literally -- I -- you know,
we were doing things about like tuition hikes, and I will never forget, this one kid was like, “I don’t care if they raise
the tuition; my dad pays for my tuition.”
Amaka: Wow.
Sabrine: “It’s not going to mean anything to me. Like, $500 doesn’t mean anything.” That’s who we got! So what
do we do with that?
Amaka: Yeah. By the time that, you know, you graduated and -- or not just graduated, but by the time that you left,
like, SLAM, when you were no longer working at CUNY and you had graduated --
Sabrine: Yeah.
Amaka: -- how would you describe yourself politically. Like, you know, I guess just speaking to the ways in which
SLAM may have, you know, helped shape or develop you politically. How, how was it when you -- by the time you
left, how would you describe yourself politically?
Sabrine: I think that I came in as, you know, believing in freedom and resolution like very useful ideas, but I left,
and still today, just believe in human liberation. And, and as I said earlier, self-determination. Like, I’m all about
self-deter-- you know, my kids are -- my kids, if you hear them speak, it’s so evident even in the way my kids speak
that that’s all I -- you know, I’m about. My daughter -- can I tell you a funny story real quick?
Amaka: Yeah, yeah.
Sabrine: I feel like it just speaks to who I am, and it’s not by accident. Like, it’s not by accident that I’m this way,
and it’s not because of, like, a lack of anything, it’s like with a very strong political education that I believe this. But
my daughter -- and I put this up on Facebook the other time -- she was telling me that all the girls in her class
(inaudible) like to touch her hair, and I’m like, “Well, what do you do when, you know -- what do you think about
that, Janine?” And she’s just like, “Well, Mommy, I [00:15:00] don’t like to be mean to my friends, but I tell them
not to touch me when I don’t want them to. I don’t (inaudible) my friends, but they have to respect how | feel,
right?”
Amaka: Mm-hmm. (laughs)
Sabrine: My daughter’s seven. (laughs) And I feel like that’s, that’s who I, I’m raising, and it’s who I believe. Like,
I just believe 100 percent in self-determination. Like, you want that? If it doesn’t harm anybody, do it. You know.
I’m one, I’m like, oh, these people want to (inaudible), let them (inaudible). Who cares? That’s really what I’m
about, like, people, you know, determining for themselves, like, what they want to be, recognize that, or grouped as,
and how they want to live, and as long as it doesn’t hurt anybody, respecting that. And that was -- you know, that
was -- from, from the vernacular behind it, the language behind it is (inaudible). And the respect to it. You know, I
was raised Muslim, so I probably -- and | still identify as Muslim, but a lot of my radical politics, I probably
wouldn’t have that if I’d just stayed in like a Palestinian nationalist ideology. Like a lot of my ideas about gender
and, and, and, like, gender relationships, that comes specifically from SLAM.
Amaka: Can you speak, I guess generally, to, you know, post-SLAM, like the movement work or just the type of
work that you’ve been involved in since then?
Sabrine: Sure. After I left SLAM -- first I taught. I was overseas for two years when | still considered myself an
active member of SLAM. I feel like I was on sabbatical. And | taught for two years in Jordan. And I came back
and worked with SLAM again. But then when I left that, when I left SLAM at that point, I needed another job, and I
became a union organizer for the Professional Staff Congress, and so | did that organizing work. And | was able to
maintain a lot of my (inaudible) CUNY work through my work at the PSC, you know, in the capacity of being an
organizer for the PSC, but also outside of that. I still maintain like a lot of connections to folks, even not necessarily
the ones that were in SLAM, but when SLAM was gone, rather, I still maintained my connections to folks and was
still part of a lot of things. So I think that that’s what I stayed working on with CUNY the most. And I worked there
for five years, and it was three and a half years ago. It was in 2009 when I left that job. And have made a decision
to, like, be at home and be with my children and raise them for -- the goal was like five to seven years, and then, you
know, and then get back into the work. So I think of myself still as politically active, because I’m still aware of what
goes on and I still attend rallies and I will still help different organizations when I can, but I made a very conscious
decision, you know == and I said, like, I have the rest of my life to continue doing this political work. I just want to
make sure I can handle -- I want to be there for my children outside of that world --
Amaka: Yeah, okay.
Sabrine: -- in these formative years. But yeah. So (inaudible), here at three and a half, I’ve like created a political
activist break. (laughter) Because I was all in. You can imagine, start talking to me. I was all in.
Amaka: Yeah.
Sabrine: (inaudible). Let me take a break, and then I can get back at it.
Amaka: Mm-hmm. What do you, what do you think is the legacy or the, the significance of SLAM?
Sabrine: Um... Legacy of SLAM...
Amaka: Or, or, I guess, or I guess more generally, if that’s a weird question, like, what lessons did you learn most
from that period? Like, what did you take from that that you’re still -- that you still carry with you?
Sabrine: Other than like my very specific, like, very open-minded politics, also -- and I think Irini asked me a similar
question, and I answered the idea of community. I think that’s what my answer was. Just this larger idea of
community and the importance of building, building political organizations and empowering the most
disenfranchised to be able to dictate [00:20:00] the, the voice and the tone of that political organization. And I think
that for years to come, students have -- that have to fight this like very uphill battle against corporatization, and we,
we were kind of the vanguard of that. The political movements before us, the ones that we idolized and understood,
most of them were about, about racism and gender issues. And, you know, it actually was kind of a very funny joke
that I ended up working for a union, because | was never really a big union person. The only reason why I chose the
union job was because it was CUNY-affiliated, and I wanted, I wanted to keep working around CUNY issues. Like,
it really is a passion for me. So outside of unions and the way that they organize around workers, | think that we
were -- what we see now, that the corporatization of all of like our public and communal access -- like, programs and
different things -- we were the first people to fight against that. So | think that in the future -- or, amongst the first.
Definitely not the first, but amongst like that first wave. So | think like in the future when students are going to have
to keep fighting this thing, they can look to SLAM and learn from our mistakes. Right? And a lot -- you know, and
we’ve made a lot -- we did make some mistakes, but also we were very principled, and I think that that’s something
that people -- and I always say that. I really believe that, and I don’t think that it’s naive. We really held ourselves
to a very high standard and were very principled as an organization, and that’s something that I’m proud to have
been a part of, and | think that’s a wonderful legacy, to teach people to actually stand for what you believe in and
don’t get in bed with the enemy, not even a little bit. Not even a little bit. Don’t even get -- don’t even even get a
quick feel. (laughter)
Amaka: All right. Well, is there anything else that you’d, you know, like to say about -- I mean, my questions are
done.
Sabrine: Thank you, Amaka. | feel like I, I, 1 spoke so much. I don’t have anything else to say. If you have any
other questions, please let me know. You know, either through email communications or now you have my number.
You really can call me. Before two o’clock is best because you don’t have to hear the chorus of children behind me
(laughter) when my kids are home.
Amaka: Okay.
Sabrine: Yeah. My kids are like kind of sick this morning, and I was like, “Oh, I’m not going to be able to do an
interview if y’all are home. Go to school.” (laughter)
Amaka: Okay. Well yeah, no, that’s cool. I mean, I -- this has been a like really excellent interview. Like I’ve --
Sabrine: Thank you.
Amaka: -- gotten so much from it, and so I thank you for, you know, taking the time out. I know it’s not easy to
kind of like carve away two hours to speak to some random person about SLAM, but --
Sabrine: Oh, thank you. I’m so happy that you’re doing this work.
Amaka: Yeah, me too. I mean, I’m -- you know, the interviewing is, is some of the best part about it, you know, and
the archives are dope, it’s just, you know, there’s a lot of politics within my department and within my committee
and stuff about this project, but the actual research is, is amazing and is great, so I’m, I’m really grateful that I get to,
you know -- that this gets to be my research. I’m really grateful for that.
Sabrine: You know, Amaka, | have a box from the archive that’s old photos.
Amaka: Oh, okay.
Sabrine: That didn’t go into the (inaudible) library. And I’m not putting it in there. (laughs) But if you want -- if
you want to maybe talk about finding a way to get the box to you or you coming and seeing some of the stuff, we
have a lot of like crazy pictures in there. So I have a box, just so you know.
Amaka: Okay, that’s -- yeah, that’s wonderful.
Sal
brine: All right? (laughs)
Amaka: All right. Well, I'll probably, you know, hit you up sometime in the future about, you know, perhaps, you
know, viewing some of the stuff in that box maybe, or -- yeah, sometime in the future.
Sal
brine: Right on. No problem. That’s great.
Amaka: Okay. All right, well, have a great day. Thank you again.
Sal
brine: Thank you. Thank you so much.
Amaka: All right. Peace.
Sal
brine: Have a great day. Be safe.
Amaka: All right. Thanks, bye.
END OF AUDIO FILE
Title
Oral History Interview with Sabrine Hammad
Description
In her interview, Sabrine Hammad discussed her political upbringing in a Palestinian nationalist household, and her relationships with her sisters who were also in the Student Liberation Action Movement (SLAM!) At Hunter College in the 1990s, where they all studied. She talked about the organizational structure of SLAM!, and in particular the work that she and Kai Lumumba-Barrow did in the office, and Kai’s cultivation of women of color leaders in the organization. She discussed solidarity work, including a delegation she took part in that went to Iraq in the early 2000s. She situated SLAM! within a constellation of people of color-led Left organizations in New York at the time, including within CUNY. Finally, she discussed her work after leaving SLAM!, including as an organizer with the CUNY Professional Staff Congress union.
The Student Liberation Action Movement (SLAM!) was a CUNY student-led organization active in the 1990s and 2000s with branches at a number of campuses including Hunter College and City College. Emerging from the broad movement to resist state and city budget cuts to CUNY, and in particular out of the CUNY Coalition Against the Cuts, SLAM! was a dynamic organization engaged in radical work on and off campus. SLAM!'s political ideology was expansive, encompassing feminism, communism, anarchism, internationalism, queer liberation, Black power, and prison-industrial complex abolitionism.
Contributor
Okechukwu, Amaka
Creator
Okechukwu, Amaka
Date
November 15, 2019
Language
English
Rights
Copyrighted
Source
Okechukwu, Amaka
interviewer
Okechukwu, Amaka
interviewee
Hammad, Sabrine
Location
New York City
Transcription
Sabrine Hammad
SABRINNEHAMMAD1
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: All right, so can you just state -- this is just the basic identification questions -- if you could just state your name.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Sabrine Hammad.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: And your age?
SABRINE HAMMAD: Thirty-six.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: And how do you racially identify?
SABRINE HAMMAD: As a Palestinian American.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay, and how do you identify your gender?
SABRINE HAMMAD: Female.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: And how do you identify your sexual orientation?
SABRINE HAMMAD: I never do. (laughter)
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay, that’s cool. And are you -- what is your marital status, and do you have children?
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yes, I’m married, and I have two children, a boy and a girl.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay, great. So can you speak to where you were born and raised? You know, just generally growing up, like location-wise and both kind of your immediate household as well as, you know, your surroundings -- neighborhoods, schools, those sort of things.
SABRINE HAMMAD: For sure. I was actually born during the civil war in Lebanon, and my parents moved to the United States when I was a year and two months old, to Brooklyn. And I -- they lived in Park Slope for maybe one or two years, or -- I don’t know if it was Gowanus or Park Slope back then. But I grew -- I started my elementary school years in Sunset Park, Brooklyn, which at that time was a large immigrant, Puerto Rican, like specifically Puerto Rican -- larger Latino community, but very specifically Puerto Rican community. And I went to school -- I went to my elementary school there, and then at junior high school age, my parents moved to Staten Island, New York, which was a very different community, white community. And so -- and that’s where they live. That’s where they still live now. I grew up in Sunset -- I consider myself having grown up -- that I grew up in Sunset Park, Brooklyn.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. How would you, you know, describe I guess the environments in regards to, you know, school. Like, is there anything specific that you remember about, like, high school or middle school in regards to, like, race and class? Like, you’ve mentioned that, you know, moving from, you know, a very Puerto Rican neighborhood to a very white neighborhood, was that --
SABRINE HAMMAD: Very conflicting.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah. How was that experience, and do you remember it?
SABRINE HAMMAD: It was rough. It was very rough. Also, I grew up in Sunset Park, Brooklyn, and I really, even at Sunset Park, Brooklyn, identified, was identified as “other” because my parents were new immigrants and were very strongly attached to their cultural roots and identity, and they were very different than what was the norm in my neighborhood then. But I didn’t feel -- I, I knew that I was different, but I didn’t necessarily feel attacked for it, because I grew up there, it’s different. When I came into Staten Island, a Palestinian, and I moved into a neighborhood -- I started going to school with a lot of children that had heard a lot of horror stories about Palestinians over the years, and I definitely was attacked for that, and that was rough. I’ve told my parents, “Why would you move us to Staten Island? You know we’re Palestinian. That’s not a good move.” But (laughs) at that time, like, they didn’t know the dynamic that happened in the school. For sure, yeah.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Is there a -- is there a Palestinian community in New York, and if so, are your -- you know, was your family at all connected to that?
SABRINE HAMMAD: There is. There is a Palestinian community. My family was connected to it to an extent. My father was a Palestinian freedom fighter when, when he was coming up, and that’s actually why I was born in Lebanon; that’s why he was there with my mom and two older sisters. So he had some political connections, and he had his own connections, but in all honesty, we were raised a little more insular from the larger community in terms of the children. And it wasn’t until we were older -- much older -- that we became active in the Palestinian community. My first Arab friends from school -- when I had a large number of Arab friends -- were in college. [00:05:00] And, and since then, when I -- after I got married, I originally moved to Bay Ridge, Brooklyn, which if you know about Brooklyn, that’s the Arab -- that’s definitely like the Arab-concentrated neighborhood. We have two in New York. There’s Astoria, Queens, and Bay Ridge, Brooklyn. Astoria has a lot of North Africans and Egyptians. I’m just giving you this history --
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah, this is helpful.
SABRINE HAMMAD: And Brooklyn, we -- the Arabs that originally immigrated to the United States in the 1800s and early 1900s, a lot of them were Lebanese and Syrian, a lot of them were Christian. They moved to downtown Brooklyn, and then in the ’70s they started moving up towards the Bay Ridge. And now that’s where you have a lot of Lebanese, Syrian, the Yemenese and Palestinian. And now there’s more Egyptians there too, but there is kind of that difference between, like, the Mediterranean countries, the Fertile Crescent, in Brooklyn, and then North African in Queens.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. Could you -- I mean, you already mentioned that your, you know, your father was a freedom fighter in Palestine. Can you speak more to, you know, your parents politically, like their political identification and growing up, like, how would you describe them politically, and how was your household politically?
SABRINE HAMMAD: My household, I definitely would say Palestinian nationalists growing up, growing up. For my -- and that, that was because of my dad. I, I have had -- the interview -- I’ve interviewed with Suzy Subways -- I’m sure you’ve spoken to her --
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: -- (inaudible) Suzy, and with Irini Neofotistos SLAM Herstory Project, and I’ve told them about how my mom, like, sabotaged our political involvement because she was so worried. So she’s very consciously and purposefully not political, but my father was definitely very strong nationalist. I would say in some areas even radical, and (inaudible) definitely not all. He had a lot of traditional ideology as well. But we grew up in a political household. I’m one of five, and my two older sisters were very active in, in politics as well in those years, the SLAM years, and they were both involved with SLAM as well.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay, all right.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Did that answer your question?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah, it does, it does. And I --
SABRINE HAMMAD: Okay. If I don’t answer your question, please tell me, Amaka --
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: -- because I can -- yeah. (laughs)
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: No, you’re answering your -- absolutely. And, you know, I’m in, in contact with Suzy and I’ve, you know, read a lot of the interviews that she’s posted, so, you know, I’m also not going to have you necessarily repeat yourself if you’ve spoken to specific things in different places, so.
SABRINE HAMMAD: No, for sure. No, of course. I’m happy to -- whatever’s going to make your interview -- give you the best information you need for your dissertation.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. Well, thank you very much. All right, so -- so growing up, what did your parents do? Like, what was their occupations and -- yeah. What were their occupations?
SABRINE HAMMAD: My father was actually very typical Arab immigrant shopkeeper or owner. He, he -- I don’t know -- you’re -- you know right now (inaudible) California?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: No. I’m in Brooklyn. I live in Crown Heights.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Oh, you’re in Brooklyn?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: (inaudible). So you know that very typical Arab grocery store owner in all of the lower-income neighborhoods. Have you seen that?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: I don’t know if they’re in Crown -- I don’t -- well, Crown isn’t a very lower-income -- you have beautiful houses in Crown Heights, actually. (laughs)
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah. I mean, it’s, it’s mixed, and you know, Crown Heights has an interesting dynamic because a lot of it is Hassidic, so there’s just -- there’s an interesting just dynamic with that happening.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: But, you know, I lived -- I’ve lived in like Clinton Hill, on the border of Bed-Stuy. Like, I -- you know, I, I have an understanding of that, yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: He had like that very typical, like, when you go into areas and you have like the Arab grocery store. That was my dad. He owned -- he, he worked -- when he first came, he worked -- he had that story where he did work like seven days a week for like 16 hours a day, almost no money, in supermarkets -- which is really back-breaking work. It’s one of like the hardest -- as an adult, I see that -- it’s one of the harder physical jobs to do stock and things like that. And then, you know, he started just to own -- he was in partnerships with [00:10:00] supermarkets, and then I -- my whole high school years, he had a, a grocery store on Flatbush Avenue. So I spent every weekend and all the summer, all my summers, first in Hollis, Queens, which is why I have an affinity for like old-school (inaudible) hip-hop, (laughter) and then in -- and then in Flatbush, which is why I have an affinity for dance hall. It’s hilarious. My music taste is such a study in (laughter) all the phases of my life. (laughter)
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: that’s what’s up.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. And then -- okay. So your father worked in a store. Did your mother work, or -- did she also work in the store?
SABRINE HAMMAD: My mom was a housewife.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay, mm-hmm.
SABRINE HAMMAD: And she refused at any point to ever -- like, while other immigrant women in the ’90s and early 2000s, while my classmates, their moms were working, my mom just believed that it is not her role; she should not ever have to work. It’s so purposeful. She refused. She didn’t like even go visit my dad in the store, just in case he’d ask her to do something. (laughter) She was really serious. She was like, “That is your job. I raise five children.”
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: (laughs) That’s real.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. So did you -- which -- did you go straight into college after high school or did you take time off, or?
SABRINE HAMMAD: No, I went straight to college.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. So did you -- you attended Hunter?
SABRINE HAMMAD: I did. (inaudible) Hunter (inaudible).
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. What years were you at Hunter?
SABRINE HAMMAD: From 1995 to 1999 as a student, but then I worked in the USG the SLAM offices in the year 2000. And then I went away 2000 to two thousand-- yeah, from 1999 to 2000, and I went away, I was overseas for a few years, but when I came back, I worked in the SLAM offices for one more year.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. Okay. Why did you choose Hunter out of all of the cuny schools?
SABRINE HAMMAD: Because my two sisters were there. And it was in Manhattan. I was in Staten Island. My other option was CSI, the College of Staten Island, and I -- I just wanted to get off of Staten Island. Have you been to Staten Island? I didn’t know that you -- I just told you my whole Brooklyn/Queens story thinking you were from California. I don’t know why I thought that.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: I am, I am -- I am from California.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Oh, okay. (laughs)
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah, I’m from Oakland, but I’ve lived in New York for like six years now, so I’ve lived in Brooklyn.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Have you ever been to Staten Island?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Very briefly. Like, I haven’t spent much time there.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah. Well, just from you being there, could you tell why I was trying to run off the island?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah. No, it’s very white, it’s very kind of suburban and -- yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: I was like (inaudible). It was horrible.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. What was your -- what was your major? What did -- what did you major in?
SABRINE HAMMAD: I majored in history and education.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. And by the time that you got to college, I mean, would you say that you were politicized in a particular way? I mean, how would you describe yourself politically at the time at which you entered college?
SABRINE HAMMAD: I was always, even among -- even in high school, when I was involved with, like, Amnesty International and the human rights group and the animal -- against animal testing group -- I always was politically involved, but I always was so much more left-leaning or radical than any one of my peers. So I always felt like I had a political understanding because of my family, who my dad was, my older sisters, but I always felt that the political -- the political activist structure that was put in place wasn’t something that necessarily represented me 100 percent. I always felt so much more than that. So I would definitely say when I entered college I had already come in with, like, my foot in, in the door.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Because of -- yeah.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Do you remember any professors or, like, significant courses that you took while you were at Hunter?
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yes. I had -- do you mean that shaped my current political ideology --
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: -- or do you just mean, like -- okay. So I had Professor Robert [G. Shah?], who is a -- he was an English professor and also part of Asian American Studies [00:15:00] department, who I took -- initially I took just English with him. I think it was like the second course of English that we take at CUNY. But then I, I followed him -- I was such a fan, I took I think like two or three more classes with him. (inaudible) in the asian american studies department. And that was all Asian American literature after that. He was excellent and very -- I think he was the first professor or the person who had like an academic (inaudible) -- had a -- he was definitely political and definitely pushed for additional, you know, broader understanding Asian American studies and the role of Asian Americans in the community, but he was the first person that I saw, like, do it academically. And then I’m sure if you ask other people that we had Professor [Casmali?], and that was Puerto Rican Studies. And anyone mentions him, if you ask them this question; he was such a big hit. And I loved him.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah, I’ve had a few people mention him. Definitely.
SABRINE HAMMAD: He was so cute. He was -- (laughter) He -- had this little cult following. It’s funny. I know that other people (inaudible) stuff, but I’m all about, like, essentially freedom in (inaudible).
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah, no, I appreciate it. I love all the details. I love -- it makes -- it provides a fuller picture for me.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah, like why a lot of people started taking Professor Casmali. They weren’t all interested in black, Puerto Rican literature, but they were like, I’m interested in Professor Casmali. (laughter) And he was -- he was great. But you know, just the fact that there were black and Puerto Rican literature classes at Hunter meant so much, I think, for people that historically have felt disenfranchised. I’ve never identified myself as black or Puerto Rican, you know -- I mean, in a larger context of like just disenfranchised, yeah. But for me, I still felt definitely an affinity to that department and felt like -- there’s -- you know, there was definitely no Arab American Studies department at Hunter, and then the BLCR was kind of the next place that I could go to to find at least some affirmation within the school. So he was -- he was excellent, and he helped -- he helped when Professor [Carver?] in sociology -- I think he was in sociology -- he was -- he was great. And -- oh my God. There’s one more professor. She was amazing, and I’m so sad I can’t remember her name right now. And actually, Irini, I tried to mention in her Irini’s interview as well, and I forgot her name. And what’s funny is she’s the only person that’s like on my Facebook of all those professors.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Oh.
SABRINE HAMMAD: That breaks my heart. I got to look it up.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Well, if you remember -- I mean, whenever you remember it, you can always, like, email it to me or something. You know what I’m saying?
SABRINE HAMMAD: For sure.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: That’s cool.
SABRINE HAMMAD: That’s what I’m gonna do.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. So at the time, you know, you entered, ’95, can you describe, like, the political -- what you remember about the political climate generally in New York at the time?
SABRINE HAMMAD: For me, I was 18 years old, so I didn’t know a lot of the big picture, but I really felt -- I had come in 1995 right off of that humongous rally that CUNY Coalition Against the Cuts had put together at city hall, where it was --
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right.
SABRINE HAMMAD: -- and it was really -- I came there in the fall after a spring of intense globalization and activity and demonstration and protests against the cut to open admissions and remedial education and the increase in -- the cuts in financial aid. So I came in after that gauntlet was thrown, so to say, and as an 18-year-old, I felt like I was living in the end of times. I’m like, oh man, this is crazy. (laughter) Yeah. That’s like 100 percent true. It felt very strong and it felt -- I thought this is when things would change, you know. Like, okay, we got this, we’ll do this, this is what’s going to happen now in the course of the world. You know, this our, like, 1958 before 1959 in Cuba (laughter) or -- that’s what it felt like.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. in Hunter -- you know, clearly, I guess, [00:20:00] coming off of the big rally and, you know, at city hall, and just generally, I guess, Hunter must have been just bustling with political activity. So can you describe, like, you know, how the political climate was at Hunter when you entered, just in terms of different organizations and, like, you know, just general kind of student activity?
SABRINE HAMMAD: If you’re ever been to Hunter -- do you -- if -- it’s a few buildings connected by, like, walkways.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right, yeah. I’ve been there.
SABRINE HAMMAD: And yes, so I was -- when I was talking to Irini, I was talking about how we were older than the hallways. There were always -- those -- you would walk from Hunter West, where there was tables, you know, where you signed a petition for Mumia Abu-Jamal, to get him off the death penalty, and then you would walk, and then the Palestinian Club which I was part of had a table that was talking -- like, against the occupation, against what was going on in Palestine. And then, like, right next to it was the (inaudible), which is (inaudible), but they would have like some postcards you could send to the governor for some reason, anyway. So that -- and that was every day, all day every day. And then once slam came on the scene, we were always out there. But it wasn’t even just slam. The women’s studies -- like, there were feminist groups at Hunter, there were other people of color groups at Hunter. The year that I was -- my freshman year, a lot of the folks that had been in the Black Student Union and had been part of that cuny coalition against the cuts, part of that big push, they had just graduated right before I came. Or, like, a lot of them were taking like a semester off. So I remember -- I remember that first year some folks trying to rebuild the Black Student Union. You know. I don’t know if (inaudible), he was -- he was part of that the first year. So yeah, there were always folks in the hall. I felt like Hunter -- you know, it was just busting at the seams, and always -- something was always going on. There was always a poetry reading or a movie being shown. Like, there were all these activities all around the school, and they were just actually literally in the hallway -- in the hallways. You’re always bumping into one club or another.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. How do you -- like, how did SLAM come to be in regards to your -- I mean, I don’t -- you may have not -- I don’t know at what point in time you joined SLAM, if it was at the beginning or at what stage, but how -- you know, what is -- you know, how would you speak to kind of the beginning of SLAM?
SABRINE HAMMAD: I think that when, when I first entered -- when I first entered as a freshman in the fall of 1995, we hadn’t established SLAM as the Student Liberation Action Movement yet. We were still -- people who were interested in doing that work against all of the [current opportunities?], the various attacks, were still working in terms of part of CUNY Coalition Against the Cuts, but I can’t actually -- I don’t think there was another name that we were using specifically. But I came in and I started working with [those?] folks right away. At that time there was [Kim Wade?], who actually? like, took me under her wing, and Jed Brandt and Christopher Gunderson -- we used to call him Chris Day -- and Sandra Barros, Lenina Nadal. My sister, Suheir Hammad, was in -- at Hunter -- (inaudible) had left, but she was still around doing things. My sister Suzan Hammad was still around doing things. So I came in already doing that work. It’s like I came in also -- (inaudible) they didn’t have a space, but like the Palestinian Club had a space on campus and historically had been very active and vocal politically, and I came in to Hunter, like, my first day I had lunch there. It was just -- I knew where I was going, and that was the same with my involvement with SLAM. So I -- yeah. It was very organic. I just -- my sisters’ friends were all of these people, so when I came, they all wanted to look out for me and, you know, I was talking to them, I had met a lot of them before or had heard a lot about a lot of them before. And a lot of them were in spaces that were already in the Thomas Hunter building, like Jed and Christopher Day, and [Akif?] -- I think [Akif Olell?] was there for my freshman year when the Spheric offices, which were -- [00:25:00] have you heard of Spheric? Have they told you?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yes. I’ve heard of it, and I’ve -- you know, I’ve talked to folks who’ve mentioned it. Kazembe talked about it, and -- I haven’t interviewed Jed yet, but we’ve had conversations about it, so yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Great. So Spheric offices is -- if I could like explain to you -- that time a community, 18 years old, it was literally just like I was going into -- you know in Alice in Wonderland when she looks and sees the cat?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah. (laughter)
SABRINE HAMMAD: That’s like what it was -- what it was for me. You know, they’re like all older than me. Even some of them only by a year or two, but some of them were a lot older than me. And I would just go in there and just shut up and listen. Just listen to everything that people were talking about. And I didn’t come into college knowing -- I did know about Mumia, but like a lot -- like, about the MOVE Organization or -- a lot of the more radical things I, I learned about my first year, was a very sharp political education, was in the Spheric offices. So yeah. And I would just sit there and -- you know, and then when we started -- like, (inaudible) organizing, I would do stuff. I would be giving out flyers, all of that good stuff.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. Why -- I mean, was it just part of the fact that you were -- you know, like you had older siblings who were there, and you were just kind of swept up in the political energy, in terms of why you joined SLAM? I mean, you already mentioned that you were part of the Palestinian Club as well. So I guess my question is, you know, why, why join SLAM?
SABRINE HAMMAD: I have to tell you, I didn’t feel like I joined it, I felt like it was -- because, because the name didn’t come out until after I was already a part of it --
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right, right, right.
SABRINE HAMMAD: -- I didn’t feel like it was -- I felt like this was a group of people that I was already working with. I can speak to why I started working with them, and it’s really because I really believed in what we were fighting about.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right.
SABRINE HAMMAD: I spoke earlier about how even when I was in high school and did some of the political things, I felt that they didn’t speak, to the extent that I wanted it, self-determination and [humanization?]. That’s how I would really describe my politics. I just believe 100 percent in self-determination. That’s it. Like, I don’t have a nationalism behind it or -- I just -- everybody determine for yourself. And I never felt that that was addressed in any other realm until I started meeting people from what later then became SLAM. But it wasn’t SLAM when I started.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right.
SABRINE HAMMAD: You know? But -- yeah. And my sisters, I definitely -- I, you know, was interested, and because my sisters were, were there, but the truth is, I, I was the one -- when I actually was doing the most work with SLAM, neither of them were necessarily involved with SLAM the organization by that time. So definitely my family history had a lot to do with it, but I also just believed very strongly. I created my own path and my own relationships and was doing that work because I personally felt very strongly about it.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. Between -- so you came in in the fall of ’95, and SLAM really comes out, what, spring ’96? So what was the -- could you talk about it, you know, being there before it was SLAM, what was that process for it to get to, you know, a name and, you know, somewhat of a structure? Do you remember anything at all about kind of that process of, you know, for this kind of informal group formally becoming SLAM?
SABRINE HAMMAD: I think it was about running for the -- running for the student government slate. At Hunter, even before I came, there was this push, I was feeling -- this was 1993, as far as I know -- for people to get into student government because they recognized that’s where the resources were.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right.
SABRINE HAMMAD: And it was never thought before to take over the entire student government and run under this very politically radical slate. But the push came when there was a lack of leadership. I think that the students that were in the student government, going into the student government in 1996, that there was a lot of rumor about them, and maybe some of them had been found doing improper things with some money, or --I don’t want to misspeak on that, but I’m almost 95 percent sure that there was [00:30:00] a situation around with that. And people just saw the potential of having the space and having access to that funding and access to all of the communication abilities that come. And that’s what actually took us from just being this group around, you know, campus, loosely formatted group, formulated group, into something that can have a constitution and something that’s going to have bylaws, and we’re going to actually have a mission of being, like a women of color -- you know, a multicultural organization, but that was specifically women of color led.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right.
SABRINE HAMMAD: So that was it. And just for honesty, I wasn’t necessarily part of all those conversations. At that point I was very involved and I was part and privy to some of them, but I feel like I -- you know, I joked, the last interview I gave, you know, when Irini asked me, like, why student government, and I was like, “Why? Why student government, Jed? You just told me about it.” Like that decision was very simply made without me there. I completely supported it once the decision was made, and was happy to be behind it, and campaigned viciously, you know, as much as I possibly could, but, you know, in just all honesty, I -- that -- this is a position -- this isn’t -- I wasn’t in the room for.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. How, how would you describe the structure of SLAM? I mean, you know, on one hand you have SLAM, you know, in student government, so that, you know, in some ways, that’s, you know, the structure is, is there. But, you know, I guess, you know, there were also just kind of, you know, a general membership as well. So how would you describe the structure? And I guess both, like, formally and informally. Because, you know, some organizations will have, like, a core of people that are doing a lot of stuff and then, you know, other folks that may be in and out. How would you describe SLAM as, you know, as a structure? Structurally, how would you describe it?
SABRINE HAMMAD: Actually, the way that you just described it. We did, we had a core -- oh, I’m sorry. Can I interrupt for one second?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: I found that professor’s name. Her name was [Esperanza Martell?].
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Oh, okay, yeah. I’ve heard -- other people have mentioned her as well. Yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Okay. I just -- I feel like I’m dishonoring her by not being able to bring her up. And then I throw out all the men and I forget the woman. Like, that’s horrible. (laughter) You know, I recognize when I make those mistakes. But, you know, colonialism and patriarchy runs deep. (laughter)
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yep, yep, you know.
SABRINE HAMMAD: It runs in your brain. And in all fairness, she actually never was my professor. I never took any of her courses, but she was always there for us as an organization. And the other people I mentioned were actually my professors. But -- I’m sorry, I’ll go back and answer your question. (laughter) We did exactly the way that you described, in terms of us having a core membership, and those were the folks that were -- that took on the larger positions in the student government, who took on the co-presidency and the treasurer. I don’t even remember, in all honesty, who our first president was, who we ran to be -- it may have been Rachél Laforest. That’s who I think it was. But I can’t be honest and tell you I know 100 percent. But I also felt that we worked so communally within the space, that although my position was on the Auxiliary Enterprises board, I was still in the student government offices every day doing work. And my position only needed me to go to a meeting, maybe like for the entire school year, not even half a dozen meetings. But I was so in -- in terms of in the school, and then I was part of the larger student government meeting amongst ourselves. But we are -- at that point -- and it got very intertwined. Student government and SLAM the political organization kind of became the same thing.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right.
SABRINE HAMMAD: It wasn’t until I think later on that there was more of a distinction, as we started recruiting members that really not all of them had as radical politics as that initial crew, and so then I think that there was more of a push to have differences. We had people that were in student government that were very distinctly not SLAM. But it wasn’t necessarily that much of an issue, I feel.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Do you, do you remember any of those people who weren’t -- people that you had in the student government that weren’t distinctly SLAM?
SABRINE HAMMAD: That weren’t SLAM? I remember there was a sister by the name of [Nefertiti?]. She was, she was in student government. She had ran as student government. [00:35:00] And when we -- there just wasn’t enough SLAM members to be able to run a full student government slate, so we had to go to the clubs and find people who were in, who were in the clubs that were, that were politically minded or interested. So a lot of -- you know, there was positions that didn’t really have anything to do with the policies that the student government would, would work on, and a lot of those were taken with people from, you know, other, other groups, but that we were sympathetic to us.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right, right.
SABRINE HAMMAD: So there was, like, Nefertiti. I remember there was, um, [Mark Grossman?], I think his name was, and a kid named [Joshua Stern?]. And there were times where they kind of, I think, like flirted with SLAM, but I feel like both those boys were Zionist, and that was also -- we were really distinctly against that. So there was never like a full integration of them into SLAM. They still did a lot of the student government work and did a lot of the work against the budget cuts. So yeah. We were so radical! Like, you really couldn’t just get anybody on board, especially at the beginning when we think we were our strongest. So in order to be able to fill the slate, I think that when we kind of solicit people, we talked about the difference between student government and SLAM. But as I speak to you and I think about really what our day-to-day looked like, there was an administrative side that we kind of deemed to be the student government side, but all of our political work was so very distinctly SLAM. And we changed the name. Never before was there a student government that would have the name of a slate on the student government, but I remember our stamps no longer just said USG, the stamps would always -- because you would have to stamp flyers and various things for clubs, and like when we would like -- people would -- people would go to the administration and get tables. There were a variety of things we would have to stamp. And those stamps always would say, you know, Hunter College USG and the year, ’98-’99, so on and so forth. When SLAM took office, we got SLAM USG --
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Oh, that’s what --
SABRINE HAMMAD: -- on our stamps. So we became SLAM USG. We were the -- like we, we completely coopted USG and sort of made it ours, and we were all about, being, identification. So we didn’t stop, even our -- in the face of administration and even, you know, dealing with the larger 20,000 students that were at Hunter College, we didn’t start saying that we were student government; we’d always said we’re SLAM student government, SLAM student government. We were always SLAM USG. So that was -- so I think that speaks to how we were able to marry the two. It was kind of like a muddled, no clear boundaries. It was definitely like a free love kind of (laughter) marriage.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. Yeah, that’s really helpful, because, you know, everyone speaks to it being muddled, but, you know, I think it was helpful the way you were able to kind of distinguish administrative and, you know, SLAM USG and all that.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah. We tried as much, I think, as we could to own it, to own the student government and make it, make it an arm of, like, the radical politics of SLAM.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right, right. How -- so, like, along with that, the radical politics of SLAM, like, ideologically, how would you describe SLAM?
SABRINE HAMMAD: Radical politics. (laughter) this is hard. You know, SLAM was a space where every political ideology would -- could be discussed and, and conversated about and explored. And it was as far left as I’ve ever seen since then even. I’ve never seen an organization that just really truly embraced every liberation struggle in the world. Yeah, we were politically, like, very far left. I think -- you know, and you had different ideologies in terms of we had black nationalist, we had communist, we had socialist, we had anarchist. So we didn’t have a set ideology where we could say, like, we’re a socialist organization. We definitely weren’t. We weren’t a communist organization. But we all were able to fit under, like, the larger umbrella of more radical people of color politics that embraced self-determination struggles [00:40:00] around the world. That’s the best description I can give.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. No, that’s helpful. Demographically, how would you describe SLAM? So, you know, race, nationality, gender...
SABRINE HAMMAD: Oh, people of color. Thank goodness. My good--. But that -- that’s why -- people -- you know, even people of color who weren’t necessarily as radical as a lot of the founders of SLAM would still be more interested in SLAM and would kind of like work into that politics because who wanted to join another NYPIRG? Like (laughter) if you were a person of color in New York, there’s no representation for us ever, anywhere. And I’ve spoken in the past about the aesthetic of SLAM, like, how cool this group looked. And we had white members -- Christopher Day, we had Jed Brandt. We always -- I -- you know, hindsight is 20/20. I always think now about the fact that our white members were all male and very few -- like, Suzy Subways was, you know -- I feel like she’s the only white woman member that was involved at Hunter. I know that City College had some white members. But --
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: But it was --
SABRINE HAMMAD: -- you know, a lot of people never -- City College and Hunter College were never necessarily integrated as one body. And I know that --
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And it seems to me as if a lot of the City College white folks were men too.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah, right?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Mm-hmm, yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: They’re always ready to take over everything. (laughter) [Well, not?] everything, but. But you know, you know, like, I, I made the joke about forgetting Esperanza Martell’s name, but it’s like, you know, patriarchy and colonialism run deep. There were white women that were interested, that were interested in SLAM and interested in doing that work, but I could imagine that it was-- that we weren’t always willing to be accepting. You know, I know that at City College, some of the sisters that were involved there, some of the white women were involved there, definitely felt like at Hunter College the women of color were not accepting of them. And I heard that before. You know, and I, I won’t even -- I was probably one of those (inaudible). I -- you know. And yeah, that was it. But we were definitely -- you know, we had white people. We were people of color for the vast majority, and then we were women of color led. We made a decision to actually try to empower into leadership women of color. So we were training women of color to take on the larger roles. They weren’t stuck always being the ones to answer the phones and -- which, that work is noble too. All work in movement work is important work, and I really believe that. And I’m a testament to that, because I always did office work. But, you know, there was a push to train women, you know, women of color in public speaking, to train them in the administrative or the role in terms of how student government has to survive in -- how SLAM had to survive in the role of student government and to fit in coalitions. We were pushed to do that. Any other space that I’ve ever been in, women of color are never encouraged to be the face of an organization that was multicul-- that had different people on it. If there was a white man in the group, of course he’s going to be the one that’s going to represent the organization. And we didn’t have that. White men were -- did represent as well, because, you know, (inaudible). But we, we made a push for women of color to do that work, to speak on news shows and to (inaudible) sound bites while giving interviews, doing protests, to be the MCs for the protests. Those were all very calculated decisions that folks who -- our insistence that we remain true to our principles of being women of color led and being the slate that we empowered women of color.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right. So in terms -- you know, because I think that’s one of the really dope things that I’ve, you know, taken from the interviews and the research that I’ve done on SLAM, the fact that it was women of color led -- what did that mean in regards to -- I mean, because you’ve spoken to it a little bit, but, you know. Oftentimes when you’re in these organizations that are, like, multicultural or, you know, where you have just a lot of diversity within the group, you know, sometimes that leads to like, you know, some, some of the white men need to be told to, like, stand down sometimes, [00:45:00] and, you know, I mean, there’s different processes around, like, allowing for folks to take leadership and have a voice. Oftentimes that means that people who are used to having leadership need to, you know, sit back and listen sometimes. So what -- I mean --
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah, that was hard for them.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Were there a -- like, what was -- what was -- what did that look like in SLAM? Like, were those conversations had often, were people told to, like, you know, stand down? I mean, were there --
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yes.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah, mm-hmm.
SABRINE HAMMAD: They were. White men were often told to be quiet. (laughs) And they were -- for some of them it was easier. You know, you also have to be a certain white man to be willing to be in an organization like SLAM.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: That’s real.
SABRINE HAMMAD: So later on, like, the people that I came up with when -- the people I -- the white men I came up with were Jed Brandt and Christopher Day, right, they were there from the beginning, and they definitely served as mentors, I think, to a lot of us. And in that capacity I felt had -- they were more vocal, because they always taught -- you know, (inaudible), and they both had very radical politics and changed the direction (inaudible) women. But then later on when they were -- when we had other white men in the organization that came into an organization that already had this system of women leadership in place, those were very specific kind of men, like [Joseph Halen?], (inaudible), [John McCann-Doyle?], that understood that they had to, like, be, be quiet and sit back. And John McCann-Doyle -- all -- you know, like, all three of them, like John McCann-Doyle, he would sit in a meeting and he would just not even try to talk sometimes. (laughs) He was okay with, with that. I never remember having, you know, to have a conversation like, “Okay, now let a woman talk” with him. But we would do that when we would have our SLAM meetings, and I remember, like, we would be sitting around, and where we would have like a speakers’ list, like who wanted to say something. We would look for, like, let’s get, let’s get a woman. You already spoke, Mr. White Man, like, no, we want, we want women to address us, we want people of color to address us, we want older people to address us, we want younger people to address us. We were always very well aware, which is why in our meetings, you know, in some spaces which would have taken a half hour took six hours for us. (laughs) We were so aware. But yeah, we would tell white men, like, “No, that’s it. You don’t get to talk right now.” Like, “Now, you have to listen.” And we would use that word, like -- those words, like “your privilege and your ownership over this space and over conversation, you have to check that,” like, “Here’s me. I just want to make sure that so-and-so checks their privilege, because they’re talking a lot. (laughter) There’s other people here that” -- we would say stuff like that. And we could -- and, you know, there was conflict around it sometimes, but I feel like we were always very honest about change what it was. Like, I wasn’t silencing something, to silence white men because of anything personal, but I felt like we would have a discussion of how important it was for them to see what our world looks like every single day and how we’re always silenced. Because if you’re in this organization with all of us, you’re in it for one reason, but you have no idea what our world actually looks like. So yeah. And, you know, (inaudible) at that time, and I think that in general, we got it right.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. So you’ve -- you know, you mentioned it a little bit, and I kind of have it roundabout in one of the questions that I wrote out, but like, you know, folks have talked about, like, SLAM is just like fly, you know what I’m saying, like just presenting --
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah, we were.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: -- itself as fly, like there was, you know, like art and poetry and, you know, culture, and, like, Kai would like, you know, decorate the office, and it was just fly.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Could you just speak to that a little bit?
SABRINE HAMMAD: We really were. We were just the coolest thing. That’s what I was saying, like, people even maybe associated more politically with NYPIRG wouldn’t want to join them when they saw us. They’re like, “What? They’re so whack. (laughter) Like, what are these folks?” Our chant line when we got into rallies. People would be like, “Can we march with you? Can we march with you?” Can you imagine? We were definitely like the rock stars. It’s so funny to think of that. And also, especially now when you think of, like, you know, reality TV and celebrity worship as it exists, like, post-2005, [00:50:00] I feel like, it’s such a different animal, but back then, within the young, the youth activist community in New York -- and there were a lot of groups coming out at that time. CAAAV, which was an organization, I think it’s Center for Asian -- Against Asian American Violence.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Violence, yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Right? And they were -- a lot of groups. We worked with [IEC?], we worked with a lot of different groups, a lot of the different colleges. Even if they didn’t have SLAM, they would have like one or two radical groups on campus, you know, like -- about things like political prisoners and things like that. But we were the -- I feel like SLAM as an organization was the gold standard because we were large and our access to resources gave us an opportunity to get things [simple?] (inaudible), like T-shirts made (inaudible) on it, so when we roll into a space, we all dressed the same and we all, you know, would have a chant sheet that had these chants that were working off of very relevant present-day hip hop. You know. It was like that some from DMX: “Stop, drop, shut ’em down, open up shop.” Remember that song?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah, yeah. (laughs)
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah. We did a chant to that for Mumia. And then we had the flip side of that because then Kai and Ashanti would teach us old, like, Black Panther chants, and so you -- yeah. We would -- there was just like, I feel like, a look, and a lot of people saw this look. And I think what also helped us, we were very organized. For young kids, we were organized. We -- when we were going in to, you know, be loud and boisterous, we did that, and then when it was time for us to be quiet, we did that too. And then when we marched, we knew, you know, we could do a strict formation. So we didn’t look like this just, like, messy group of ragtag kids; we looked like a -- at that time and space, for our ages -- a very sophisticated machine. And I -- and yeah. We were so cool. Like, our poetry readings. Now I can reminisce, I’m like, “Yeah, we were awesome.” I always tell my kids about SLAM. Like, “Mommy, when you were in SLAM.” I’m like, “Yeah.” I think my dad can’t. (laughter)
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Word.
SABRINE HAMMAD: But yeah. Yeah, I think, like, our aesthetic had a lot to do with it, our, our popularity as an organization.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right. So SLAM had -- so SLAM was involved with like mad different activities. You have like direct action stuff, this political education, student government stuff. I was going through -- you know that there’s like SLAM archives at NYU Tamiment
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: So I was going through some of those a while ago and, like, I was seeing, like, grant applications to like the North Star Fund and --
SABRINE HAMMAD: (inaudible), yes.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: -- all type of stuff. So, like, what, what activities were you most involved in in SLAM, and what, what do you see as like significant about the work that SLAM did?
SABRINE HAMMAD: Okay, the first part. I -- the campaigns that I worked on the most were definitely -- first and foremost was all of the CUNY stuff. So very specifically, anything that was around the budget cuts, the tuition hikes, the end of financial aid, and the end of remedial education, all of those access to education, quality education issues, it was something that I was always on board with and always very strongly involved in. And that wasn’t the case with everybody. Some people really didn’t do that much of that work. When we evolved into an organization that did a lot of other projects, some folks, you know, would be in SLAM and barely did any of that work. So, you know, were doing a lot of the other things. But for me, the, the education stuff was always very important. It really is the reason why I joined, you know, was all of that access to education. And then specifically, other than that -- so that was (inaudible) from 1996 -- I mean, from 1995 to 1999 when I graduated, there was never a time that that wasn’t an issue, right, education. It wasn’t like it was one campaign that we picked up and then dropped off later on.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right. [00:55:00]
SABRINE HAMMAD: But -- I’m trying to think. So I was involved in that. And then I did a lot of the Mumia Abu-Jamal work, about freeing Mumia Abu-Jamal. When we -- you know, when we organized Mumia -- organized along with other groups to get people (inaudible) rallies, that was something that I think I was front and center on. I did a lot of that work. I did -- I traveled with other women from SLAM, and we worked against the sanctions in Iraq. That was something that I, that I was invested in.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Can you speak more specifically to that project? Because I think I saw in the archives, like, pictures from that time when you guys were traveling, and there isn’t a lot, like, written, so I couldn’t really get a lot from the archive with regards to what the actual work was. But I did see, like -- I think I saw some letters in regards to funding for the travel, and then some pictures, but could you speak more generally to, to that project and who you traveled with and what that work was?
SABRINE HAMMAD: For sure. I didn’t -- I don’t know if the people that you’ve spoken with (inaudible) attended -- do you know who went on the trip? No one has shared that?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: No.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Because I don’t know, maybe they don’t want... (laughs) (inaudible) international trip, and I [would have?] -- I have been open about my -- what’s happened. When I came back, the FBI questioned me, but maybe I can reach out to them and let them know, and then I can provide you with their names. You know what I mean? But I went with some other women from, from, from SLAM. And at that point, we had already sent people to Mexico, to UNAM. The national university in Mexico City had had like this epic strike around that time, maybe in 1998 and 1999, and it was really a very democratic people’s movement. And we had already sent people there. And we were very vocal about international politics at that point as well. Very distinctly anti-Zionist, pro-Palestinian, very distinctly, like, anti-statehood for Puerto Rico, anti-col-- like, colonialization of Puerto Rico. We had, like, that international understanding, and we would always say, like, a globalist perspective. It’s not just about others, about outside. No, this means something to us.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right.
SABRINE HAMMAD: It, it -- we made those connections. I remember one time, like, Christopher gave me the flyer -- this was later on, but when they were gearing up for the war, the second war in Iraq, and he made a flyer that spoke about funding for the war in comparison to funding to our schools and what that looked like. And it was a great flyer because it actually made those connections for people. And (inaudible) -- any time -- because now I’m involved in my children’s school, in the PTA. (inaudible) [I must do?], but -- but, you know, whenever they’re like, “Oh, we don’t have the funding,” I’m like, “Yeah, because they’re dropping bombs. Of course we don’t have the funding.” Like, I have that understanding. But at that point, we were making those connections for the larger body. So when we went to Iraq, we went with the IEC, the International (inaudible). The, the trip was led by former US Attorney General Ramsey Clark, and it was the tenth year of the Iraq sanctions. So it was in 2000; they started in 1990. And we went to just, you know, witness, basically, the devastation that happened. And we went and we brought medical supplies and school supplies. I think over $1 million worth in terms of, like, the larger collective body --
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Wow.
SABRINE HAMMAD: -- of medical supplies and school supplies to Iraq. And it was. It was an international civil disobedience, which is interesting because the whole time that I was in SLAM -- at that point I had already graduated, so the whole time I was a student at Hunter in SLAM, we had done a lot of actions. I also did a lot of work around police brutality. I have to -- that -- yeah, that was like one of my other, like, like, projects. But we had done so many things where we did civil disobediences [01:00:00] and direct actions where we would -- if there was a chance of us getting arrested. And I came -- my father would kill me if I got arrested, Amaka. Like, you know, all of the political activity I’m telling you about, I also want to say, like, half of that -- 95 percent of that was done in secret, because even though my father was political and raised us to be political. He was still, like, a very much patriarchal, like, typical Arab man, and if he knew -- if he knew -- if he heard me at these rallies, like, running through the streets chanting about burning Cuomo or Pataki or whatever fool we were talking about, or Giuliani at that time, he would have like locked me in a room forever. (laughter) So, so I, I had never, I had never done a civil disobedience where I was guaranteed arrest the four -- the entire four years that I was in SLAM. And that was actually something that when we would talk about privilege and you have that conversation about white men being in SLAM, that’s where we encouraged white men to take the lead. We were like, “Oh, you want to be part of the struggle? Go ahead, and get arrested.” Like, there was a very political discussion about that. It wasn’t haphazard. Like, we, we understood people were immigrants, they didn’t have citizenship, people had green cards --
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yep.
SABRINE HAMMAD: -- people didn’t have green cards, the people were their family’s sole breadwinner. You know, for some people it just wasn’t an option. For me, you know, I felt like if I would have gotten arrested, then I would have not been able to continue my work in SLAM.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right, right.
SABRINE HAMMAD: But then what is so interesting is, like, I didn’t want to get arrested at, like, a CUNY rally, but then they freaking go to Iraq on like an international civil disobedience where -- it was like two years of jail -- like, up to five years of jail time (laughs) and like $100,000 fine. I don’t know what I was thinking. When I think, I’m like, that’s buggin’, it’s crazy. But that’s what we -- that’s what that trip was. And when we came back, we did have a lot of difficulty. We came back -- the trip was in January of 2000. When we came back, it was like at the beginning of this new onslaught of, of attacks against CUNY. So we did try to do some work. We did some of that, and we did a -- some organizing. I was part of a lot of report-backs, and I worked with IEC for a while about it. But the truth is, is that work I’ve swept up under this new frenzy of dissent. They wanted to attack again, and it was just -- it was getting harder. We lost a lot of our core members, and the newer members coming in, you know, wonderful, wonderful people who just didn’t have as much experience, you know. So that was that.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Did those core members that you lost, did they just -- did they graduate, or what -- you said that you lost a lot of core members at that time. Where did they go?
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah, a lot of them -- yeah, a lot of them graduated. Some, some folks moved away. But a lot of folks graduated out and had to get full-time jobs.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: You know, we’re not a fraternity; like, no one pays our bills. The majority of us were supporting ourselves. Even me, when I was in SLAM, like, I could live at home, but I, I worked in my dad’s store. I was literally -- like, I was in Flatbush on, like, Saturday, and then on Sunday I had another job, I had another part-time job in the Staten Island Mall. And then, like, my senior year I was student teaching and working in my dad’s shop and still had another -- and, and was still working in student government as an actual paid employee. So we were all -- we were all struggling. There was this point in our lives -- some people had children. You know, they had to, you know, take care of that for a while. So there was a time where, you know, the initial members -- the new members became core members, right, but the initial members of SLAM, we just -- they weren’t around as much. Kai left. Like, when Kai left, I felt like even though she wasn’t there from the beginning, she was there as soon as we took over student government. So she -- or the year after. I feel like the first -- maybe she was hired within the first year, not all the way at the beginning of the year, but either towards the middle or end, or maybe in the second year that we had student government. But she quickly, [01:05:00] quickly became our glue in so many respects. I’m sure you have -- you can’t have heard anything about SLAM, right, without talking about Kai.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: I can’t imagine anyone didn’t mention her.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Everyone at Hunter’s mentioned her, yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah. So she was -- you could imagine -- like, how do you go into a house and talk about a family without talking about Mom, right? So, you know, definitely. I think that when she left, it was ha-- it, it -- we didn’t have a -- a chunk of us left with her, right? A lot of it is like geography or just the way things worked out, but it for sure did work out that way.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Do you remember who took her position after she left?
SABRINE HAMMAD: Me. (laughs)
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. Clearly you do! (laughs)
SABRINE HAMMAD: (inaudible) she was off-- she added me as an office assistant. She hired me as an office assistant the year before she left. I think that was my, my junior year, maybe, or my senior year. Or I think I had been working there two years by the time she made me... And then when she went to leave she, she hired me as office manager. And I think that (inaudible) as an office manager I did, you know, a decent job, and a lot of the younger folks, I brought in a lot of the younger folks and tried to mentor them. But I’m not Kai! Like, at that point -- I was like 22, 23 -- the only movement I was a veteran of was SLAM. Kai came up -- she had been in the Black Panthers, she had -- like, or affiliated with them -- the BLA -- (inaudible) had history! I, you know, a 23-year-old girl can’t compare to that. (laughs) You know, and all of us, like, we all had history that we had all had, you know, struggles and things like that, but there was something that her and Ashanti -- I’m sure you heard about Ashanti --
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: -- at that time they were partnered -- that they brought that just couldn’t be... You know, there, there is magic to our, to like, the wisdom that our elders bring us. And she probably was the age I am now, so the fact, like, that I [didn’t?] call her an (inaudible), you know, but were just maybe a little bit older than me. But when she left, I felt like it was harder, maybe, to maintain a lot of the more radical. We still did the work, we still did a lot of the USG work, but that’s where somehow SLAM always won. If I could say it like that, right. Like at the beginning was between SLAM and USG, SLAM won, like. Towards the end, USG would win. And I think that that’s what made it -- that’s maybe where a lot of people were a little more disenchanted and how [that it?] has shifted a little bit --
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Well --
SABRINE HAMMAD: -- and it was harder for people.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: And also, I guess, you know, I guess losing open admissions had to have been extremely demoralizing as well.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah, like we lost the battle. Like, what -- and that’s what we had initially started. Even though I will tell you that by the time a lot of that was happening and then like the renewed attack against CUNY, the people that were involved were, were new, so it didn’t affect them like someone like me or maybe Rachél, who had been a part of it -- because Rachél stayed around just as long as I did. A lot of the other folks had already been -- I was like one of the longer, longer-standing members because after my four years of education I still continued to work in SLAM, which wasn’t necessarily the case with most people. But it was very -- it was very demoralizing I think in the larger scope. In the day-to-day we still felt like there was still so much work to be done that we couldn’t dwell. And we -- you know, and we didn’t. Like, come on. Like, you know, while you’re talking about, like Israel, like the politics of Israel, you don’t lose just like an international Goli-- you know, Goliath, right. And, you know, the military arm and all of that. So at some point we almost had to be like, mm, yeah, Giuliani, you’re nothing. Do you what I mean?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah, yeah, mm-hmm.
SABRINE HAMMAD: One time, you know, questions, like, “Do you support” -- like when the FBI questioned me (inaudible), like, oh shit, what did I do to myself -- excuse my language. (laughter)
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: I’m good.
SABRINE HAMMAD: But I’m like, no, I don’t, but what [01:10:00] about the people, but they didn’t -- they don’t care. Yeah.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: So SLAM was on, you know -- I mean, really, to, to my perception it seems like really just City College, but I guess SLAM being on other campuses, like, what was your perception of the other chapters in comparison to Hunter? Like, how were they different?
SABRINE HAMMAD: I feel like Hun-- I feel -- I know that there was something at Brooklyn College, right, and at LaGuardia Community College.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Mm-hmm. And City College.
SABRINE HAMMAD: And City College, yes. I meant like other than them. So LaGuardia was Slab. Have you introduced -- have you interviewed Slab?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: I haven’t interviewed him, but I’m in contact with him.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Oh my God, did you know he actually changed his name? We didn’t know him as Vlad, and he changed his name to Slab because we were a student-organized action movement. And I don’t know if this is true, but he insisted he changed it to Slab because he’s student liberation action brother. (laughter) He’s so dedicated. (laughter) I love him. But we -- I think that -- I think that other chapters of SLAM, in comparison -- maybe in comparison to Hunter were very small. Right? On their campuses I feel like they still did a lot of good work. In 2004 or 2005, I was working for the union, the union, the Professional Staff Congress as an organizer, and the union is a union that represents the faculty and staff at all CUNYs, at all CUNY schools. And I was at LaGuardia Community College, literally looking into the cafeteria and saw -- and this is like 2004, 2005 -- saw a sticker that said, like, “LaGuardia SLAM.”
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Oh wow.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Like, it was so crazy. Like, again, like this is before like camera phones were [fancy?]. I don’t even know if I had a cell phone at that time. But it was like, you know, it -- they have it -- everyone had a presence at their own school. I wasn’t on those other campuses, so it’s hard for me to really gauge what they were able to do in terms of like on their campus --
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right.
SABRINE HAMMAD: -- but I know that for us, it was important to us to have people at other CUNYs that we could work with. And even other schools, too, like the College of Staten Island later on, we were working with -- there was a newspaper there called the Voice, and there was a brother there named [Aman Said?], and his wife now -- they’re married and have children -- her name then, they were just college students, was [Renee Marhang?], Marhang. And they weren’t part of SLAM, but they were radicals, and so when we needed to do CUNY-wide movements, we contacted them.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right.
SABRINE HAMMAD: So there were people that even though they didn’t have SLAM, had, had similar politics and became our partners in crime. But yeah. But, you know, City College -- have people talked about like when City College became a chapter and all of what was happening then?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Well, I’ve only -- I haven’t really talked to that many people from City College. Later on today I’m going to interview somebody, and I interviewed Brad Sigal. From what I’ve heard, it seems as if the City College chapter was way more masculine. Like I don’t really hear a lot of -- like when people mention people that were in that chapter, it tends to be all men. Like, it seems like just a very masculine chapter. It seems smaller, and it also seemed as if because they never got student government, the conditions there were just very different there in regards to like their vulnerability to attack.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yes. thats so true for that space, the Shakur/Morales center.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right, right.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Which recently, just recently got shut down again.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah. They, they took it back. They’re trying to -- they -- I think they’re using the room for, like -- I mean, because it just shows you like, you know, the transformation of CUNY, but they’re using it as like, I don’t know, career development center or something ridiculous like that.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah. And it -- but you know, at City College -- and I’m sharing this because I feel like since you’re talking about the larger movement -- I’m not just trying to share like the SLAM gossip, right, but I feel like if you’re going to have this understanding of how we operated, you needed to understand some of our conflicts too.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: So when I was coming up in SLAM at the beginning, one of my very first rallies that I took the lead in [01:15:00] was they arrested an activist by the name of David Suker. Have you heard of him at City College?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah, I’ve talked to him. I haven’t inter-- I’m probably going to interview him next week, but yeah, mm-hmm.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah, right on. He -- (inaudible) -- and I still remember the chant we, we were chanting, like, “I am, you are, we’re all David Suker.” I still remember it so vividly. But they had arrested him because I -- I think he was the one that they said jumped up on the table during the board of trustees meeting. So -- so there was like this group of -- and I think that you’re right -- male, white male activists at City College. So then, Amaka, after they kind of like fizzle down and there was a point where it was just very clear, Hunter was the slam, like was SLAM. Right? So there was -- so maybe after ’97 it had died down at City College. There were still radical students that we connected with, but we didn’t necessarily see them as SLAM anymore. They didn’t necessarily identify as SLAM. And then I want to say in 2000, [Hank Williams?] restarted a SLAM chapter at Hunter College [sic?], along with -- I’m trying to think of the names of the women. There’s a woman there by the name of [Sydney Jordan Cooley?], and she was -- and there were -- there was another woman, woman. Maybe when you -- maybe if you speak to people that were part of City College, they’re remember their names, you know.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: I’m interviewing Hank later on today, so I’ll ask him.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Oh, right on. Well, Hank, [Mr.?] Hank started a charter at City College, but there was not -- he just kind of was like, “Okay, I want to start a new SLAM charter, and it’s going to be at City College.” And I remember at Hunter’s SLAM, there was a lot of conflict about that. And even, you know, years later, a lot of people felt that he just, you know, took our name. So I feel like, you know, City College SLAM had to -- so when I talked about the white women, I feel like I’m talking about the second version. So I feel like now maybe that helps with the picture. Like, I hopefully offered a little clarity, because there was -- there were like two waves of SLAM at City College. There was the initial organic one that came out of CUNY Coalition Against the Cuts and was working with Hunter and were together and doing all of that stuff, and then when Hunter’s SLAM came up, they of course -- you know, that, I think, was more of a citywide agreement. That’s why there was someone at Brooklyn College and at LaGuardia and City. But then once those SLAM chapters were gone, for whatever reason, you know, one or two or three or four years later, he comes, Hank Williams comes by and says, “I want to start another SLAM chapter.” And a lot of people weren’t happy with it. Yeah, a lot of people felt like at that point they had (inaudible), like, we had [just done?] -- we’re like, “Why don’t you just start another organization? Why do you want it to be SLAM?” You know, and I think that that also speaks to by the time he came around, we looked different. So even like the understanding of having something that may -- that could have maybe -- I know this is super-ambitious -- look like SNCC, right, and was all over the South, all over the country, the new -- a lot of the folks that were in SLAM at that point and that were part of the decision-making process were maybe -- I don’t want to -- I don’t want to say in any way that sounds wrong, just I kind of feel like we looked different. We looked different, which maybe I think contributed maybe to part of the conflict.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Did I just confuse you more? I don’t know --
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah, I’m not -- I’m not exactly sure what you mean by looking different. I mean, I know that there was -- I guess --
SABRINE HAMMAD: They weren’t as radical at that point. That’s what I mean. Like, yeah, like we weren’t as radical. At one point I made the very bad joke that we started to look like a people of color NYPIRG. (laughter) But, but -- because they were -- you know what, they were -- all throughout college, I have to say, like people knew it, they were like my punching bag because they just upset me so much. I just felt like they were the epitome of, like, white-privilege liberalism.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Right, like the -- like those white-privilege liberals that really don’t do anything for you. And so I always had it out for NYPIRG. I was -- any time I had jokes, I was cracking them against NYPIRG. So when I -- there was a point, and [01:20:00] it was specifically when I came back. I had lived overseas for two years, and when I came back, I did come back and say, like, what happened? Like, what happened? (inaudible), you know, where’s like the radical politics behind it? They had lost some of it. That’s what I mean.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay, all right. Do you -- are there any, like, significant -- I want to say, like, significant actions or, or kind of experience that you haven’t spoken to yet that you feel like you should speak to in regards to SLAM? So like, I mean --
SABRINE HAMMAD: Have people spoken about Amadou Diallo and the (inaudible) street?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Not really, so if you can speak to that.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah. When Amadou Diallo was shot 41 times by the police murderers, we were devastated as a community. It was so personal to us, and it was something that we hadn’t experienced before. We didn’t -- you know, we didn’t have a Malcolm, we didn’t have a Martin, we didn’t live in those days --
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right.
SABRINE HAMMAD: -- where we had the leaders. Like, we had Al Sharpton, and most of thought he was a joke, right? So -- and this man was not a political activist, but he spoke -- his story spoke to us because we felt that it just exemplified the brutality in which, like, the ruling class treated us, our people. Like, we felt like a brother had died, like, our brother. It was very hard. And we went to basically like a Day of Rage, right? Like, the verdict came out. I --
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SABRINEHAMMAD2
SABRINE HAMMAD: -- protest that you see around the world, where for that day -- and I don’t -- you know, I’m sure that there were a million political decisions made about what would be allowed and what would not be allowed, but that was the day that we took the streets out of rage. And we all almost got arrested like three times that day. Like we all -- these are like the running away from -- like, I ran away from cops that day. We threw stuff into the street. We blocked traffic. We -- in terms of just like an action or a situation, they -- you know, and then there were -- there were definitely formulated planned actions. We had -- a lot of SLAM members got arrested. They closed I want to say the Brooklyn Bridge. They’d stand in traffic with a lot, with like a citywide coalition of people.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: I think I read about that. I think there -- yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah. We (inaudible) -- I wanted -- like, we were on fire. Like we as a people and a community were on fire. And it was just like so emotional and tearful and -- it was -- that felt -- like, I’ll never forget those days. Those were, you know, I remember being -- you know, the cops like telling us to stay on the sidewalk, and that’s like the first time like I actually had the nerve to like curse out a cop. I was so angry, and I like -- I cursed at him, like, “F you, you’re not going to tell me what to do” -- like so angry. And had like people, you know, people like pulling me, “Shut up, Sabrine,” like. But then two minutes later the same people cursing at the same cop. And then like literally, like, taking, you know, taking like garbage cans, like, and going into the streets. That’s not -- that day, like, we didn’t allow them to pen us in. Like, we refused. As a -- as a political organization, SLAM consistently and always felt like they were getting penned in by the cops at protests and rallies. There were some times where the decision was made to stay within just (inaudible). Maybe we didn’t have enough people to (inaudible). We were smart, you know what I mean? People don’t always think of that stuff. But it was -- we definitely challenged it very often. And I think that was the first day -- like, it wasn’t even a political decision. Like, we were all just so filled with anger and hurt that we, we didn’t -- like, anything the police said, we literally just did the opposite. Yeah, that was, that was rough. And then (inaudible) I remember in terms of like that protest was large, SLAM had -- it was kind of like the first time that SLAM did something that was national, on a national scale, that we played such a large role in. We, we only were responsible for bringing up the majority of people that were coming from New York on buses to that rally. We brought hundreds of people to that rally. So that was something that -- there were a lot. We were part of so many things. You know, and then smaller, more artistic things, like having papier-mâché, like, piñata of, like, Giuliani, (inaudible) beat. (laughter) There was a lot of that stuff. Does that answer your question, or were you --
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: -- (inaudible) something else?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: No, no, no, that totally answers it. Do you remember, because you mentioned it just now, but like some of the organizations, some of the community organizations that you guys were in coalition with, that you guys would do, you know, rallies, programming, whatever, with?
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah. We (inaudible) coalition against police brutality. We worked with them. We worked with CAAAV. We worked with, like the -- I feel like it’s just like (inaudible), but (inaudible--addiction?) Organization. We worked with GUPS, the General Union of Palestinian Students. We worked with -- oh, citywide, we worked with everybody everywhere in the city. Malcolm X, MXG, like Malcolm X Grassroots Movement. Who -- I just feel like -- there was also that -- I’m trying to think of the organization that Kamau Franklin and [Amanda Ranier?] were part of (inaudible).
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Well, Kamau was in MXG, but was it also Student Power -- Student Power, something like that?
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah, SPM, Student Power Movement. Thank you! Have you interviewed Kamau?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: I’m actually interviewing him on Friday. And I was, I was in MXG for a few years, so I know a lot of --
SABRINE HAMMAD: Oh, (inaudible). Oh, you know Lamumba Bandele?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Mm-hmm.
SABRINE HAMMAD: I love Lamumba! I love -- he [00:05:00] -- I, I genuine-- he actually, when I came into Hunter, he wasn’t at Hunter when I came, but he always still looks out for me. I love Lamumba. I still (inaudible) say he’s like my Facebook friend. He’s such a wonderful human being. But yeah.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah, it’s interesting for me, because on one hand it’s like, you know, for the dissertation, you know, I’m very focused on, like, talking to SLAM people, but one of the things that most got me interested in SLAM generally was just this era with all these organizations, you know --
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: -- and just, just, you know, the collaboration. This is a time in which a lot of the organizations that are still doing work are really emerging, and, like, just the networks of like organizing, and so --
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah. And the family, the family of it, like the community. Like, MXG was part of our community, right? And yeah. And then, you know -- do you know (inaudible)? Maybe because my sister came out in that world of, like, poetry and spoken word at Hunter, but there were like all of those artists that later then became, like, [Willie Frogomo?] and [Tony Mezina?] and Asha Bandele and [Picala?] and (inaudible) and, and all of these folks that were part of that movement, that artistic movement, you know, at the Blue Moon Café (inaudible). They all had, you know -- they all in some ways associated with these different organizations. They were like our artistic arm of the revolution.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Right? That’s crazy, yeah.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah, so I mean, you know, I have -- you know, for my dissertation and just my timeline with that, like, I have to keep it very focused, but I just feel like for a longer-term project, I just feel like there’s just something really compelling about that period that isn’t necessarily, like, written down, in terms of all of these people and organizations in relationship to each other. You know?
SABRINE HAMMAD: You know who -- have you seen -- there is an, a documentary about Bed-Study, Brooklyn, during that time. Have you seen that documentary?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: No, what -- about Bed-Stuy around that time?
SABRINE HAMMAD: About Bed-- yeah.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Uh-uh.
SABRINE HAMMAD: It’s -- Amaka, I’m going to look it up and see if I can give you at least the name or try to --
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay.
SABRINE HAMMAD: I -- it just speaks about -- it speaks about kind of like the black arts movement in that time, but it’s so funny because all of the people that they mention, like [Howlet Clouise, Ertriz?] Mos Def, Erica (inaudible). If we weren’t fans -- we were all fans, but then also, like, we had, you know, Dead Prez perform at our street fairs. They performed at Hunter -- at student -- like, what?!
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right. And like Black August, you know.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah. And like Mos Def performed -- Mos Def performed, and I think he emceed one of (inaudible) concerts.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Was it -- was the documentary Brooklyn Boheme?
SABRINE HAMMAD: Oh yes, it was.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah. I’ve seen that. That’s -- I mean, it’s -- that’s interesting because it’s, it’s mostly about Fort Greene, but it kind of --
SABRINE HAMMAD: Oh, it is Fort Greene. You’re right, I’m sorry.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah. But, I mean, it speaks to Bed-Stuy a little bit, but it’s mostly Fort Greene. And I think -- I mean, for me, I liked it, but it’s a piece, you know what I’m saying? It’s just a piece.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: And so I’m -- I just -- it just --
SABRINE HAMMAD: It’s a piece of that story.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right, right. And I’m just interested in seeing something that’s almost more holistic, that kind of speaks to like the different relationships between, you know, artists and movement folks and different organizations and different movements, and -- yeah, all of that. (laughs) So --
SABRINE HAMMAD: My God, yeah.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: So maybe for a long-term project. Maybe, maybe (laughter) down the line. I have to -- I want to get my degree first and finish.
SABRINE HAMMAD: That’s true. Right on.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. So I only have a few, just a few more questions. In terms of the perception of SLAM by the student body at Hunter, did that change over time? Like, do you --
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay, can you speak to that?
SABRINE HAMMAD: I felt that -- I felt that at the beginning -- we always had our haters, but as CUNY policy changed and a lot of the people who would naturally lean toward supporting us, who were disenfranchised people of color, were then -- were, like, the working poor, they were collectively shut out of CUNY, right?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Mm-hmm.
SABRINE HAMMAD: So over the years, slowly, as the remediation policies and the cuts to financial aid and the increase in tuition, as they took hold on what CUNY looked like -- especially Hunter, because Hunter was considered one of like the flag-- like the flagship schools of CUNY, so there was this [00:10:00] push to turn it into, like, Ivy League -- Ivy League is kind of a joke, but to definitely take it out of the hands of the people. There was a point where, you know, CUNY looked different, Hunter looked different, and you could tell because people were not stopping by at our tables. It became an uphill battle. There was a new president at Hunter, her name was Jennifer Raab, she gave us a really hard time. And yeah, we definitely lost towards the end a lot of our support base.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: You know, SLAM, for a student organization, had a really -- like a relatively long lifespan for a student organization. Why do you think that SLAM lasted as long as it did?
SABRINE HAMMAD: Because we had a space. Yeah, we had a space and we had resources, and so even though I think that when members graduated -- so what would normally happen, if we were a regular organization, like, you know, one set of members would graduate, and then that’s it, they were gone; there was nothing to hold the organization together anymore. You know, there were like one or two or three stragglers left, and then so the organization would just dissipate. Because we had the student government offices and those resources, we were able to recruit people and we were able to get people who were initially involved in student government to do SLAM. And so I think that that’s part of the reason why, you know, we lasted longer and we -- that group definitely did so much important work. I never want to sound as if I dismiss the hard, the really hard work that that later group did -- which I was a part of, to an extent -- but it, it was, it had already started looking different, and it kind of like prolonged the death of SLAM, I feel like, and made it less (inaudible) and less just going out one shot. It took a couple of years where we kept on like revving up, like before the elections in the spring, there’d be like this big push, and then we -- there was just an onslaught of attacks. Like, Jennifer Raab was vicious with SLAM. She, she -- it -- I think she was responsible for them losing the student government. You know? And so -- and then there was a new -- you know, a whole new set of attacks against CUNY. And the school looks different. So in 1995 when I walked in, I was literally getting people to sign petitions for Mumia Abu-Jamal, right, and I would be able to stop people, and I would tell you, the majority of people, or close to majority, would sign the petition. You know, those kids that had to organize in 2000 and -- oh my God, after September 11th, like the people that organized after that thing, you know, our school looked different. We had this whole new white community in our school that literally -- I -- you know, we were doing things about like tuition hikes, and I will never forget, this one kid was like, “I don’t care if they raise the tuition; my dad pays for my tuition.”
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Wow.
SABRINE HAMMAD: “It’s not going to mean anything to me. Like, $500 doesn’t mean anything.” That’s who we got! So what do we do with that?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah. By the time that, you know, you graduated and -- or not just graduated, but by the time that you left, like, SLAM, when you were no longer working at CUNY and you had graduated --
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: -- how would you describe yourself politically. Like, you know, I guess just speaking to the ways in which SLAM may have, you know, helped shape or develop you politically. How, how was it when you -- by the time you left, how would you describe yourself politically?
SABRINE HAMMAD: I think that I came in as, you know, believing in freedom and resolution like very useful ideas, but I left, and still today, just believe in human liberation. And, and as I said earlier, self-determination. Like, I’m all about self-deter-- you know, my kids are -- my kids, if you hear them speak, it’s so evident even in the way my kids speak that that’s all I -- you know, I’m about. My daughter -- can I tell you a funny story real quick?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah, yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: I feel like it just speaks to who I am, and it’s not by accident. Like, it’s not by accident that I’m this way, and it’s not because of, like, a lack of anything, it’s like with a very strong political education that I believe this. But my daughter -- and I put this up on Facebook the other time -- she was telling me that all the girls in her class (inaudible) like to touch her hair, and I’m like, “Well, what do you do when, you know -- what do you think about that, Janine?” And she’s just like, “Well, Mommy, I [00:15:00] don’t like to be mean to my friends, but I tell them not to touch me when I don’t want them to. I don’t (inaudible) my friends, but they have to respect how I feel, right?”
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Mm-hmm. (laughs)
SABRINE HAMMAD: My daughter’s seven. (laughs) And I feel like that’s, that’s who I, I’m raising, and it’s who I believe. Like, I just believe 100 percent in self-determination. Like, you want that? If it doesn’t harm anybody, do it. You know. I’m one, I’m like, oh, these people want to (inaudible), let them (inaudible). Who cares? That’s really what I’m about, like, people, you know, determining for themselves, like, what they want to be, recognize that, or grouped as, and how they want to live, and as long as it doesn’t hurt anybody, respecting that. And that was -- you know, that was -- from, from the vernacular behind it, the language behind it is (inaudible). And the respect to it. You know, I was raised Muslim, so I probably -- and I still identify as Muslim, but a lot of my radical politics, I probably wouldn’t have that if I’d just stayed in like a Palestinian nationalist ideology. Like a lot of my ideas about gender and, and, and, like, gender relationships, that comes specifically from SLAM.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Can you speak, I guess generally, to, you know, post-SLAM, like the movement work or just the type of work that you’ve been involved in since then?
SABRINE HAMMAD: Sure. After I left SLAM -- first I taught. I was overseas for two years when I still considered myself an active member of SLAM. I feel like I was on sabbatical. And I taught for two years in Jordan. And I came back and worked with SLAM again. But then when I left that, when I left SLAM at that point, I needed another job, and I became a union organizer for the Professional Staff Congress, and so I did that organizing work. And I was able to maintain a lot of my (inaudible) CUNY work through my work at the PSC, you know, in the capacity of being an organizer for the PSC, but also outside of that. I still maintain like a lot of connections to folks, even not necessarily the ones that were in SLAM, but when SLAM was gone, rather, I still maintained my connections to folks and was still part of a lot of things. So I think that that’s what I stayed working on with CUNY the most. And I worked there for five years, and it was three and a half years ago. It was in 2009 when I left that job. And have made a decision to, like, be at home and be with my children and raise them for -- the goal was like five to seven years, and then, you know, and then get back into the work. So I think of myself still as politically active, because I’m still aware of what goes on and I still attend rallies and I will still help different organizations when I can, but I made a very conscious decision, you know == and I said, like, I have the rest of my life to continue doing this political work. I just want to make sure I can handle -- I want to be there for my children outside of that world --
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah, okay.
SABRINE HAMMAD: -- in these formative years. But yeah. So (inaudible), here at three and a half, I’ve like created a political activist break. (laughter) Because I was all in. You can imagine, start talking to me. I was all in.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: (inaudible). Let me take a break, and then I can get back at it.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Mm-hmm. What do you, what do you think is the legacy or the, the significance of SLAM?
SABRINE HAMMAD: Um... Legacy of SLAM...
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Or, or, I guess, or I guess more generally, if that’s a weird question, like, what lessons did you learn most from that period? Like, what did you take from that that you’re still -- that you still carry with you?
SABRINE HAMMAD: Other than like my very specific, like, very open-minded politics, also -- and I think Irini asked me a similar question, and I answered the idea of community. I think that’s what my answer was. Just this larger idea of community and the importance of building, building political organizations and empowering the most disenfranchised to be able to dictate [00:20:00] the, the voice and the tone of that political organization. And I think that for years to come, students have -- that have to fight this like very uphill battle against corporatization, and we, we were kind of the vanguard of that. The political movements before us, the ones that we idolized and understood, most of them were about, about racism and gender issues. And, you know, it actually was kind of a very funny joke that I ended up working for a union, because I was never really a big union person. The only reason why I chose the union job was because it was CUNY-affiliated, and I wanted, I wanted to keep working around CUNY issues. Like, it really is a passion for me. So outside of unions and the way that they organize around workers, I think that we were -- what we see now, that the corporatization of all of like our public and communal access -- like, programs and different things -- we were the first people to fight against that. So I think that in the future -- or, amongst the first. Definitely not the first, but amongst like that first wave. So I think like in the future when students are going to have to keep fighting this thing, they can look to SLAM and learn from our mistakes. Right? And a lot -- you know, and we’ve made a lot -- we did make some mistakes, but also we were very principled, and I think that that’s something that people -- and I always say that. I really believe that, and I don’t think that it’s naïve. We really held ourselves to a very high standard and were very principled as an organization, and that’s something that I’m proud to have been a part of, and I think that’s a wonderful legacy, to teach people to actually stand for what you believe in and don’t get in bed with the enemy, not even a little bit. Not even a little bit. Don’t even get -- don’t even even get a quick feel. (laughter)
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: All right. Well, is there anything else that you’d, you know, like to say about -- I mean, my questions are done.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Thank you, Amaka. I feel like I, I, I spoke so much. I don’t have anything else to say. If you have any other questions, please let me know. You know, either through email communications or now you have my number. You really can call me. Before two o’clock is best because you don’t have to hear the chorus of children behind me (laughter) when my kids are home.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah. My kids are like kind of sick this morning, and I was like, “Oh, I’m not going to be able to do an interview if y’all are home. Go to school.” (laughter)
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. Well yeah, no, that’s cool. I mean, I -- this has been a like really excellent interview. Like I’ve --
SABRINE HAMMAD: Thank you.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: -- gotten so much from it, and so I thank you for, you know, taking the time out. I know it’s not easy to kind of like carve away two hours to speak to some random person about SLAM, but --
SABRINE HAMMAD: Oh, thank you. I’m so happy that you’re doing this work.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah, me too. I mean, I’m -- you know, the interviewing is, is some of the best part about it, you know, and the archives are dope, it’s just, you know, there’s a lot of politics within my department and within my committee and stuff about this project, but the actual research is, is amazing and is great, so I’m, I’m really grateful that I get to, you know -- that this gets to be my research. I’m really grateful for that.
SABRINE HAMMAD: You know, Amaka, I have a box from the archive that’s old photos.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Oh, okay.
SABRINE HAMMAD: That didn’t go into the (inaudible) library. And I’m not putting it in there. (laughs) But if you want -- if you want to maybe talk about finding a way to get the box to you or you coming and seeing some of the stuff, we have a lot of like crazy pictures in there. So I have a box, just so you know.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay, that’s -- yeah, that’s wonderful.
SABRINE HAMMAD: All right? (laughs)
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: All right. Well, I’ll probably, you know, hit you up sometime in the future about, you know, perhaps, you know, viewing some of the stuff in that box maybe, or -- yeah, sometime in the future.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Right on. No problem. That’s great.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. All right, well, have a great day. Thank you again.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Thank you. Thank you so much.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: All right. Peace.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Have a great day. Be safe.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: All right. Thanks, bye.
END OF AUDIO FILE
SABRINNEHAMMAD1
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: All right, so can you just state -- this is just the basic identification questions -- if you could just state your name.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Sabrine Hammad.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: And your age?
SABRINE HAMMAD: Thirty-six.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: And how do you racially identify?
SABRINE HAMMAD: As a Palestinian American.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay, and how do you identify your gender?
SABRINE HAMMAD: Female.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: And how do you identify your sexual orientation?
SABRINE HAMMAD: I never do. (laughter)
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay, that’s cool. And are you -- what is your marital status, and do you have children?
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yes, I’m married, and I have two children, a boy and a girl.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay, great. So can you speak to where you were born and raised? You know, just generally growing up, like location-wise and both kind of your immediate household as well as, you know, your surroundings -- neighborhoods, schools, those sort of things.
SABRINE HAMMAD: For sure. I was actually born during the civil war in Lebanon, and my parents moved to the United States when I was a year and two months old, to Brooklyn. And I -- they lived in Park Slope for maybe one or two years, or -- I don’t know if it was Gowanus or Park Slope back then. But I grew -- I started my elementary school years in Sunset Park, Brooklyn, which at that time was a large immigrant, Puerto Rican, like specifically Puerto Rican -- larger Latino community, but very specifically Puerto Rican community. And I went to school -- I went to my elementary school there, and then at junior high school age, my parents moved to Staten Island, New York, which was a very different community, white community. And so -- and that’s where they live. That’s where they still live now. I grew up in Sunset -- I consider myself having grown up -- that I grew up in Sunset Park, Brooklyn.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. How would you, you know, describe I guess the environments in regards to, you know, school. Like, is there anything specific that you remember about, like, high school or middle school in regards to, like, race and class? Like, you’ve mentioned that, you know, moving from, you know, a very Puerto Rican neighborhood to a very white neighborhood, was that --
SABRINE HAMMAD: Very conflicting.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah. How was that experience, and do you remember it?
SABRINE HAMMAD: It was rough. It was very rough. Also, I grew up in Sunset Park, Brooklyn, and I really, even at Sunset Park, Brooklyn, identified, was identified as “other” because my parents were new immigrants and were very strongly attached to their cultural roots and identity, and they were very different than what was the norm in my neighborhood then. But I didn’t feel -- I, I knew that I was different, but I didn’t necessarily feel attacked for it, because I grew up there, it’s different. When I came into Staten Island, a Palestinian, and I moved into a neighborhood -- I started going to school with a lot of children that had heard a lot of horror stories about Palestinians over the years, and I definitely was attacked for that, and that was rough. I’ve told my parents, “Why would you move us to Staten Island? You know we’re Palestinian. That’s not a good move.” But (laughs) at that time, like, they didn’t know the dynamic that happened in the school. For sure, yeah.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Is there a -- is there a Palestinian community in New York, and if so, are your -- you know, was your family at all connected to that?
SABRINE HAMMAD: There is. There is a Palestinian community. My family was connected to it to an extent. My father was a Palestinian freedom fighter when, when he was coming up, and that’s actually why I was born in Lebanon; that’s why he was there with my mom and two older sisters. So he had some political connections, and he had his own connections, but in all honesty, we were raised a little more insular from the larger community in terms of the children. And it wasn’t until we were older -- much older -- that we became active in the Palestinian community. My first Arab friends from school -- when I had a large number of Arab friends -- were in college. [00:05:00] And, and since then, when I -- after I got married, I originally moved to Bay Ridge, Brooklyn, which if you know about Brooklyn, that’s the Arab -- that’s definitely like the Arab-concentrated neighborhood. We have two in New York. There’s Astoria, Queens, and Bay Ridge, Brooklyn. Astoria has a lot of North Africans and Egyptians. I’m just giving you this history --
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah, this is helpful.
SABRINE HAMMAD: And Brooklyn, we -- the Arabs that originally immigrated to the United States in the 1800s and early 1900s, a lot of them were Lebanese and Syrian, a lot of them were Christian. They moved to downtown Brooklyn, and then in the ’70s they started moving up towards the Bay Ridge. And now that’s where you have a lot of Lebanese, Syrian, the Yemenese and Palestinian. And now there’s more Egyptians there too, but there is kind of that difference between, like, the Mediterranean countries, the Fertile Crescent, in Brooklyn, and then North African in Queens.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. Could you -- I mean, you already mentioned that your, you know, your father was a freedom fighter in Palestine. Can you speak more to, you know, your parents politically, like their political identification and growing up, like, how would you describe them politically, and how was your household politically?
SABRINE HAMMAD: My household, I definitely would say Palestinian nationalists growing up, growing up. For my -- and that, that was because of my dad. I, I have had -- the interview -- I’ve interviewed with Suzy Subways -- I’m sure you’ve spoken to her --
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: -- (inaudible) Suzy, and with Irini Neofotistos SLAM Herstory Project, and I’ve told them about how my mom, like, sabotaged our political involvement because she was so worried. So she’s very consciously and purposefully not political, but my father was definitely very strong nationalist. I would say in some areas even radical, and (inaudible) definitely not all. He had a lot of traditional ideology as well. But we grew up in a political household. I’m one of five, and my two older sisters were very active in, in politics as well in those years, the SLAM years, and they were both involved with SLAM as well.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay, all right.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Did that answer your question?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah, it does, it does. And I --
SABRINE HAMMAD: Okay. If I don’t answer your question, please tell me, Amaka --
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: -- because I can -- yeah. (laughs)
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: No, you’re answering your -- absolutely. And, you know, I’m in, in contact with Suzy and I’ve, you know, read a lot of the interviews that she’s posted, so, you know, I’m also not going to have you necessarily repeat yourself if you’ve spoken to specific things in different places, so.
SABRINE HAMMAD: No, for sure. No, of course. I’m happy to -- whatever’s going to make your interview -- give you the best information you need for your dissertation.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. Well, thank you very much. All right, so -- so growing up, what did your parents do? Like, what was their occupations and -- yeah. What were their occupations?
SABRINE HAMMAD: My father was actually very typical Arab immigrant shopkeeper or owner. He, he -- I don’t know -- you’re -- you know right now (inaudible) California?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: No. I’m in Brooklyn. I live in Crown Heights.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Oh, you’re in Brooklyn?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: (inaudible). So you know that very typical Arab grocery store owner in all of the lower-income neighborhoods. Have you seen that?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: I don’t know if they’re in Crown -- I don’t -- well, Crown isn’t a very lower-income -- you have beautiful houses in Crown Heights, actually. (laughs)
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah. I mean, it’s, it’s mixed, and you know, Crown Heights has an interesting dynamic because a lot of it is Hassidic, so there’s just -- there’s an interesting just dynamic with that happening.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: But, you know, I lived -- I’ve lived in like Clinton Hill, on the border of Bed-Stuy. Like, I -- you know, I, I have an understanding of that, yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: He had like that very typical, like, when you go into areas and you have like the Arab grocery store. That was my dad. He owned -- he, he worked -- when he first came, he worked -- he had that story where he did work like seven days a week for like 16 hours a day, almost no money, in supermarkets -- which is really back-breaking work. It’s one of like the hardest -- as an adult, I see that -- it’s one of the harder physical jobs to do stock and things like that. And then, you know, he started just to own -- he was in partnerships with [00:10:00] supermarkets, and then I -- my whole high school years, he had a, a grocery store on Flatbush Avenue. So I spent every weekend and all the summer, all my summers, first in Hollis, Queens, which is why I have an affinity for like old-school (inaudible) hip-hop, (laughter) and then in -- and then in Flatbush, which is why I have an affinity for dance hall. It’s hilarious. My music taste is such a study in (laughter) all the phases of my life. (laughter)
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: that’s what’s up.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. And then -- okay. So your father worked in a store. Did your mother work, or -- did she also work in the store?
SABRINE HAMMAD: My mom was a housewife.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay, mm-hmm.
SABRINE HAMMAD: And she refused at any point to ever -- like, while other immigrant women in the ’90s and early 2000s, while my classmates, their moms were working, my mom just believed that it is not her role; she should not ever have to work. It’s so purposeful. She refused. She didn’t like even go visit my dad in the store, just in case he’d ask her to do something. (laughter) She was really serious. She was like, “That is your job. I raise five children.”
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: (laughs) That’s real.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. So did you -- which -- did you go straight into college after high school or did you take time off, or?
SABRINE HAMMAD: No, I went straight to college.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. So did you -- you attended Hunter?
SABRINE HAMMAD: I did. (inaudible) Hunter (inaudible).
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. What years were you at Hunter?
SABRINE HAMMAD: From 1995 to 1999 as a student, but then I worked in the USG the SLAM offices in the year 2000. And then I went away 2000 to two thousand-- yeah, from 1999 to 2000, and I went away, I was overseas for a few years, but when I came back, I worked in the SLAM offices for one more year.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. Okay. Why did you choose Hunter out of all of the cuny schools?
SABRINE HAMMAD: Because my two sisters were there. And it was in Manhattan. I was in Staten Island. My other option was CSI, the College of Staten Island, and I -- I just wanted to get off of Staten Island. Have you been to Staten Island? I didn’t know that you -- I just told you my whole Brooklyn/Queens story thinking you were from California. I don’t know why I thought that.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: I am, I am -- I am from California.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Oh, okay. (laughs)
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah, I’m from Oakland, but I’ve lived in New York for like six years now, so I’ve lived in Brooklyn.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Have you ever been to Staten Island?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Very briefly. Like, I haven’t spent much time there.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah. Well, just from you being there, could you tell why I was trying to run off the island?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah. No, it’s very white, it’s very kind of suburban and -- yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: I was like (inaudible). It was horrible.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. What was your -- what was your major? What did -- what did you major in?
SABRINE HAMMAD: I majored in history and education.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. And by the time that you got to college, I mean, would you say that you were politicized in a particular way? I mean, how would you describe yourself politically at the time at which you entered college?
SABRINE HAMMAD: I was always, even among -- even in high school, when I was involved with, like, Amnesty International and the human rights group and the animal -- against animal testing group -- I always was politically involved, but I always was so much more left-leaning or radical than any one of my peers. So I always felt like I had a political understanding because of my family, who my dad was, my older sisters, but I always felt that the political -- the political activist structure that was put in place wasn’t something that necessarily represented me 100 percent. I always felt so much more than that. So I would definitely say when I entered college I had already come in with, like, my foot in, in the door.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Because of -- yeah.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Do you remember any professors or, like, significant courses that you took while you were at Hunter?
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yes. I had -- do you mean that shaped my current political ideology --
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: -- or do you just mean, like -- okay. So I had Professor Robert [G. Shah?], who is a -- he was an English professor and also part of Asian American Studies [00:15:00] department, who I took -- initially I took just English with him. I think it was like the second course of English that we take at CUNY. But then I, I followed him -- I was such a fan, I took I think like two or three more classes with him. (inaudible) in the asian american studies department. And that was all Asian American literature after that. He was excellent and very -- I think he was the first professor or the person who had like an academic (inaudible) -- had a -- he was definitely political and definitely pushed for additional, you know, broader understanding Asian American studies and the role of Asian Americans in the community, but he was the first person that I saw, like, do it academically. And then I’m sure if you ask other people that we had Professor [Casmali?], and that was Puerto Rican Studies. And anyone mentions him, if you ask them this question; he was such a big hit. And I loved him.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah, I’ve had a few people mention him. Definitely.
SABRINE HAMMAD: He was so cute. He was -- (laughter) He -- had this little cult following. It’s funny. I know that other people (inaudible) stuff, but I’m all about, like, essentially freedom in (inaudible).
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah, no, I appreciate it. I love all the details. I love -- it makes -- it provides a fuller picture for me.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah, like why a lot of people started taking Professor Casmali. They weren’t all interested in black, Puerto Rican literature, but they were like, I’m interested in Professor Casmali. (laughter) And he was -- he was great. But you know, just the fact that there were black and Puerto Rican literature classes at Hunter meant so much, I think, for people that historically have felt disenfranchised. I’ve never identified myself as black or Puerto Rican, you know -- I mean, in a larger context of like just disenfranchised, yeah. But for me, I still felt definitely an affinity to that department and felt like -- there’s -- you know, there was definitely no Arab American Studies department at Hunter, and then the BLCR was kind of the next place that I could go to to find at least some affirmation within the school. So he was -- he was excellent, and he helped -- he helped when Professor [Carver?] in sociology -- I think he was in sociology -- he was -- he was great. And -- oh my God. There’s one more professor. She was amazing, and I’m so sad I can’t remember her name right now. And actually, Irini, I tried to mention in her Irini’s interview as well, and I forgot her name. And what’s funny is she’s the only person that’s like on my Facebook of all those professors.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Oh.
SABRINE HAMMAD: That breaks my heart. I got to look it up.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Well, if you remember -- I mean, whenever you remember it, you can always, like, email it to me or something. You know what I’m saying?
SABRINE HAMMAD: For sure.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: That’s cool.
SABRINE HAMMAD: That’s what I’m gonna do.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. So at the time, you know, you entered, ’95, can you describe, like, the political -- what you remember about the political climate generally in New York at the time?
SABRINE HAMMAD: For me, I was 18 years old, so I didn’t know a lot of the big picture, but I really felt -- I had come in 1995 right off of that humongous rally that CUNY Coalition Against the Cuts had put together at city hall, where it was --
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right.
SABRINE HAMMAD: -- and it was really -- I came there in the fall after a spring of intense globalization and activity and demonstration and protests against the cut to open admissions and remedial education and the increase in -- the cuts in financial aid. So I came in after that gauntlet was thrown, so to say, and as an 18-year-old, I felt like I was living in the end of times. I’m like, oh man, this is crazy. (laughter) Yeah. That’s like 100 percent true. It felt very strong and it felt -- I thought this is when things would change, you know. Like, okay, we got this, we’ll do this, this is what’s going to happen now in the course of the world. You know, this our, like, 1958 before 1959 in Cuba (laughter) or -- that’s what it felt like.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. in Hunter -- you know, clearly, I guess, [00:20:00] coming off of the big rally and, you know, at city hall, and just generally, I guess, Hunter must have been just bustling with political activity. So can you describe, like, you know, how the political climate was at Hunter when you entered, just in terms of different organizations and, like, you know, just general kind of student activity?
SABRINE HAMMAD: If you’re ever been to Hunter -- do you -- if -- it’s a few buildings connected by, like, walkways.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right, yeah. I’ve been there.
SABRINE HAMMAD: And yes, so I was -- when I was talking to Irini, I was talking about how we were older than the hallways. There were always -- those -- you would walk from Hunter West, where there was tables, you know, where you signed a petition for Mumia Abu-Jamal, to get him off the death penalty, and then you would walk, and then the Palestinian Club which I was part of had a table that was talking -- like, against the occupation, against what was going on in Palestine. And then, like, right next to it was the (inaudible), which is (inaudible), but they would have like some postcards you could send to the governor for some reason, anyway. So that -- and that was every day, all day every day. And then once slam came on the scene, we were always out there. But it wasn’t even just slam. The women’s studies -- like, there were feminist groups at Hunter, there were other people of color groups at Hunter. The year that I was -- my freshman year, a lot of the folks that had been in the Black Student Union and had been part of that cuny coalition against the cuts, part of that big push, they had just graduated right before I came. Or, like, a lot of them were taking like a semester off. So I remember -- I remember that first year some folks trying to rebuild the Black Student Union. You know. I don’t know if (inaudible), he was -- he was part of that the first year. So yeah, there were always folks in the hall. I felt like Hunter -- you know, it was just busting at the seams, and always -- something was always going on. There was always a poetry reading or a movie being shown. Like, there were all these activities all around the school, and they were just actually literally in the hallway -- in the hallways. You’re always bumping into one club or another.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. How do you -- like, how did SLAM come to be in regards to your -- I mean, I don’t -- you may have not -- I don’t know at what point in time you joined SLAM, if it was at the beginning or at what stage, but how -- you know, what is -- you know, how would you speak to kind of the beginning of SLAM?
SABRINE HAMMAD: I think that when, when I first entered -- when I first entered as a freshman in the fall of 1995, we hadn’t established SLAM as the Student Liberation Action Movement yet. We were still -- people who were interested in doing that work against all of the [current opportunities?], the various attacks, were still working in terms of part of CUNY Coalition Against the Cuts, but I can’t actually -- I don’t think there was another name that we were using specifically. But I came in and I started working with [those?] folks right away. At that time there was [Kim Wade?], who actually? like, took me under her wing, and Jed Brandt and Christopher Gunderson -- we used to call him Chris Day -- and Sandra Barros, Lenina Nadal. My sister, Suheir Hammad, was in -- at Hunter -- (inaudible) had left, but she was still around doing things. My sister Suzan Hammad was still around doing things. So I came in already doing that work. It’s like I came in also -- (inaudible) they didn’t have a space, but like the Palestinian Club had a space on campus and historically had been very active and vocal politically, and I came in to Hunter, like, my first day I had lunch there. It was just -- I knew where I was going, and that was the same with my involvement with SLAM. So I -- yeah. It was very organic. I just -- my sisters’ friends were all of these people, so when I came, they all wanted to look out for me and, you know, I was talking to them, I had met a lot of them before or had heard a lot about a lot of them before. And a lot of them were in spaces that were already in the Thomas Hunter building, like Jed and Christopher Day, and [Akif?] -- I think [Akif Olell?] was there for my freshman year when the Spheric offices, which were -- [00:25:00] have you heard of Spheric? Have they told you?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yes. I’ve heard of it, and I’ve -- you know, I’ve talked to folks who’ve mentioned it. Kazembe talked about it, and -- I haven’t interviewed Jed yet, but we’ve had conversations about it, so yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Great. So Spheric offices is -- if I could like explain to you -- that time a community, 18 years old, it was literally just like I was going into -- you know in Alice in Wonderland when she looks and sees the cat?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah. (laughter)
SABRINE HAMMAD: That’s like what it was -- what it was for me. You know, they’re like all older than me. Even some of them only by a year or two, but some of them were a lot older than me. And I would just go in there and just shut up and listen. Just listen to everything that people were talking about. And I didn’t come into college knowing -- I did know about Mumia, but like a lot -- like, about the MOVE Organization or -- a lot of the more radical things I, I learned about my first year, was a very sharp political education, was in the Spheric offices. So yeah. And I would just sit there and -- you know, and then when we started -- like, (inaudible) organizing, I would do stuff. I would be giving out flyers, all of that good stuff.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. Why -- I mean, was it just part of the fact that you were -- you know, like you had older siblings who were there, and you were just kind of swept up in the political energy, in terms of why you joined SLAM? I mean, you already mentioned that you were part of the Palestinian Club as well. So I guess my question is, you know, why, why join SLAM?
SABRINE HAMMAD: I have to tell you, I didn’t feel like I joined it, I felt like it was -- because, because the name didn’t come out until after I was already a part of it --
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right, right, right.
SABRINE HAMMAD: -- I didn’t feel like it was -- I felt like this was a group of people that I was already working with. I can speak to why I started working with them, and it’s really because I really believed in what we were fighting about.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right.
SABRINE HAMMAD: I spoke earlier about how even when I was in high school and did some of the political things, I felt that they didn’t speak, to the extent that I wanted it, self-determination and [humanization?]. That’s how I would really describe my politics. I just believe 100 percent in self-determination. That’s it. Like, I don’t have a nationalism behind it or -- I just -- everybody determine for yourself. And I never felt that that was addressed in any other realm until I started meeting people from what later then became SLAM. But it wasn’t SLAM when I started.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right.
SABRINE HAMMAD: You know? But -- yeah. And my sisters, I definitely -- I, you know, was interested, and because my sisters were, were there, but the truth is, I, I was the one -- when I actually was doing the most work with SLAM, neither of them were necessarily involved with SLAM the organization by that time. So definitely my family history had a lot to do with it, but I also just believed very strongly. I created my own path and my own relationships and was doing that work because I personally felt very strongly about it.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. Between -- so you came in in the fall of ’95, and SLAM really comes out, what, spring ’96? So what was the -- could you talk about it, you know, being there before it was SLAM, what was that process for it to get to, you know, a name and, you know, somewhat of a structure? Do you remember anything at all about kind of that process of, you know, for this kind of informal group formally becoming SLAM?
SABRINE HAMMAD: I think it was about running for the -- running for the student government slate. At Hunter, even before I came, there was this push, I was feeling -- this was 1993, as far as I know -- for people to get into student government because they recognized that’s where the resources were.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right.
SABRINE HAMMAD: And it was never thought before to take over the entire student government and run under this very politically radical slate. But the push came when there was a lack of leadership. I think that the students that were in the student government, going into the student government in 1996, that there was a lot of rumor about them, and maybe some of them had been found doing improper things with some money, or --I don’t want to misspeak on that, but I’m almost 95 percent sure that there was [00:30:00] a situation around with that. And people just saw the potential of having the space and having access to that funding and access to all of the communication abilities that come. And that’s what actually took us from just being this group around, you know, campus, loosely formatted group, formulated group, into something that can have a constitution and something that’s going to have bylaws, and we’re going to actually have a mission of being, like a women of color -- you know, a multicultural organization, but that was specifically women of color led.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right.
SABRINE HAMMAD: So that was it. And just for honesty, I wasn’t necessarily part of all those conversations. At that point I was very involved and I was part and privy to some of them, but I feel like I -- you know, I joked, the last interview I gave, you know, when Irini asked me, like, why student government, and I was like, “Why? Why student government, Jed? You just told me about it.” Like that decision was very simply made without me there. I completely supported it once the decision was made, and was happy to be behind it, and campaigned viciously, you know, as much as I possibly could, but, you know, in just all honesty, I -- that -- this is a position -- this isn’t -- I wasn’t in the room for.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. How, how would you describe the structure of SLAM? I mean, you know, on one hand you have SLAM, you know, in student government, so that, you know, in some ways, that’s, you know, the structure is, is there. But, you know, I guess, you know, there were also just kind of, you know, a general membership as well. So how would you describe the structure? And I guess both, like, formally and informally. Because, you know, some organizations will have, like, a core of people that are doing a lot of stuff and then, you know, other folks that may be in and out. How would you describe SLAM as, you know, as a structure? Structurally, how would you describe it?
SABRINE HAMMAD: Actually, the way that you just described it. We did, we had a core -- oh, I’m sorry. Can I interrupt for one second?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: I found that professor’s name. Her name was [Esperanza Martell?].
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Oh, okay, yeah. I’ve heard -- other people have mentioned her as well. Yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Okay. I just -- I feel like I’m dishonoring her by not being able to bring her up. And then I throw out all the men and I forget the woman. Like, that’s horrible. (laughter) You know, I recognize when I make those mistakes. But, you know, colonialism and patriarchy runs deep. (laughter)
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yep, yep, you know.
SABRINE HAMMAD: It runs in your brain. And in all fairness, she actually never was my professor. I never took any of her courses, but she was always there for us as an organization. And the other people I mentioned were actually my professors. But -- I’m sorry, I’ll go back and answer your question. (laughter) We did exactly the way that you described, in terms of us having a core membership, and those were the folks that were -- that took on the larger positions in the student government, who took on the co-presidency and the treasurer. I don’t even remember, in all honesty, who our first president was, who we ran to be -- it may have been Rachél Laforest. That’s who I think it was. But I can’t be honest and tell you I know 100 percent. But I also felt that we worked so communally within the space, that although my position was on the Auxiliary Enterprises board, I was still in the student government offices every day doing work. And my position only needed me to go to a meeting, maybe like for the entire school year, not even half a dozen meetings. But I was so in -- in terms of in the school, and then I was part of the larger student government meeting amongst ourselves. But we are -- at that point -- and it got very intertwined. Student government and SLAM the political organization kind of became the same thing.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right.
SABRINE HAMMAD: It wasn’t until I think later on that there was more of a distinction, as we started recruiting members that really not all of them had as radical politics as that initial crew, and so then I think that there was more of a push to have differences. We had people that were in student government that were very distinctly not SLAM. But it wasn’t necessarily that much of an issue, I feel.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Do you, do you remember any of those people who weren’t -- people that you had in the student government that weren’t distinctly SLAM?
SABRINE HAMMAD: That weren’t SLAM? I remember there was a sister by the name of [Nefertiti?]. She was, she was in student government. She had ran as student government. [00:35:00] And when we -- there just wasn’t enough SLAM members to be able to run a full student government slate, so we had to go to the clubs and find people who were in, who were in the clubs that were, that were politically minded or interested. So a lot of -- you know, there was positions that didn’t really have anything to do with the policies that the student government would, would work on, and a lot of those were taken with people from, you know, other, other groups, but that we were sympathetic to us.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right, right.
SABRINE HAMMAD: So there was, like, Nefertiti. I remember there was, um, [Mark Grossman?], I think his name was, and a kid named [Joshua Stern?]. And there were times where they kind of, I think, like flirted with SLAM, but I feel like both those boys were Zionist, and that was also -- we were really distinctly against that. So there was never like a full integration of them into SLAM. They still did a lot of the student government work and did a lot of the work against the budget cuts. So yeah. We were so radical! Like, you really couldn’t just get anybody on board, especially at the beginning when we think we were our strongest. So in order to be able to fill the slate, I think that when we kind of solicit people, we talked about the difference between student government and SLAM. But as I speak to you and I think about really what our day-to-day looked like, there was an administrative side that we kind of deemed to be the student government side, but all of our political work was so very distinctly SLAM. And we changed the name. Never before was there a student government that would have the name of a slate on the student government, but I remember our stamps no longer just said USG, the stamps would always -- because you would have to stamp flyers and various things for clubs, and like when we would like -- people would -- people would go to the administration and get tables. There were a variety of things we would have to stamp. And those stamps always would say, you know, Hunter College USG and the year, ’98-’99, so on and so forth. When SLAM took office, we got SLAM USG --
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Oh, that’s what --
SABRINE HAMMAD: -- on our stamps. So we became SLAM USG. We were the -- like we, we completely coopted USG and sort of made it ours, and we were all about, being, identification. So we didn’t stop, even our -- in the face of administration and even, you know, dealing with the larger 20,000 students that were at Hunter College, we didn’t start saying that we were student government; we’d always said we’re SLAM student government, SLAM student government. We were always SLAM USG. So that was -- so I think that speaks to how we were able to marry the two. It was kind of like a muddled, no clear boundaries. It was definitely like a free love kind of (laughter) marriage.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. Yeah, that’s really helpful, because, you know, everyone speaks to it being muddled, but, you know, I think it was helpful the way you were able to kind of distinguish administrative and, you know, SLAM USG and all that.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah. We tried as much, I think, as we could to own it, to own the student government and make it, make it an arm of, like, the radical politics of SLAM.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right, right. How -- so, like, along with that, the radical politics of SLAM, like, ideologically, how would you describe SLAM?
SABRINE HAMMAD: Radical politics. (laughter) this is hard. You know, SLAM was a space where every political ideology would -- could be discussed and, and conversated about and explored. And it was as far left as I’ve ever seen since then even. I’ve never seen an organization that just really truly embraced every liberation struggle in the world. Yeah, we were politically, like, very far left. I think -- you know, and you had different ideologies in terms of we had black nationalist, we had communist, we had socialist, we had anarchist. So we didn’t have a set ideology where we could say, like, we’re a socialist organization. We definitely weren’t. We weren’t a communist organization. But we all were able to fit under, like, the larger umbrella of more radical people of color politics that embraced self-determination struggles [00:40:00] around the world. That’s the best description I can give.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. No, that’s helpful. Demographically, how would you describe SLAM? So, you know, race, nationality, gender...
SABRINE HAMMAD: Oh, people of color. Thank goodness. My good--. But that -- that’s why -- people -- you know, even people of color who weren’t necessarily as radical as a lot of the founders of SLAM would still be more interested in SLAM and would kind of like work into that politics because who wanted to join another NYPIRG? Like (laughter) if you were a person of color in New York, there’s no representation for us ever, anywhere. And I’ve spoken in the past about the aesthetic of SLAM, like, how cool this group looked. And we had white members -- Christopher Day, we had Jed Brandt. We always -- I -- you know, hindsight is 20/20. I always think now about the fact that our white members were all male and very few -- like, Suzy Subways was, you know -- I feel like she’s the only white woman member that was involved at Hunter. I know that City College had some white members. But --
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: But it was --
SABRINE HAMMAD: -- you know, a lot of people never -- City College and Hunter College were never necessarily integrated as one body. And I know that --
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And it seems to me as if a lot of the City College white folks were men too.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah, right?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Mm-hmm, yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: They’re always ready to take over everything. (laughter) [Well, not?] everything, but. But you know, you know, like, I, I made the joke about forgetting Esperanza Martell’s name, but it’s like, you know, patriarchy and colonialism run deep. There were white women that were interested, that were interested in SLAM and interested in doing that work, but I could imagine that it was-- that we weren’t always willing to be accepting. You know, I know that at City College, some of the sisters that were involved there, some of the white women were involved there, definitely felt like at Hunter College the women of color were not accepting of them. And I heard that before. You know, and I, I won’t even -- I was probably one of those (inaudible). I -- you know. And yeah, that was it. But we were definitely -- you know, we had white people. We were people of color for the vast majority, and then we were women of color led. We made a decision to actually try to empower into leadership women of color. So we were training women of color to take on the larger roles. They weren’t stuck always being the ones to answer the phones and -- which, that work is noble too. All work in movement work is important work, and I really believe that. And I’m a testament to that, because I always did office work. But, you know, there was a push to train women, you know, women of color in public speaking, to train them in the administrative or the role in terms of how student government has to survive in -- how SLAM had to survive in the role of student government and to fit in coalitions. We were pushed to do that. Any other space that I’ve ever been in, women of color are never encouraged to be the face of an organization that was multicul-- that had different people on it. If there was a white man in the group, of course he’s going to be the one that’s going to represent the organization. And we didn’t have that. White men were -- did represent as well, because, you know, (inaudible). But we, we made a push for women of color to do that work, to speak on news shows and to (inaudible) sound bites while giving interviews, doing protests, to be the MCs for the protests. Those were all very calculated decisions that folks who -- our insistence that we remain true to our principles of being women of color led and being the slate that we empowered women of color.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right. So in terms -- you know, because I think that’s one of the really dope things that I’ve, you know, taken from the interviews and the research that I’ve done on SLAM, the fact that it was women of color led -- what did that mean in regards to -- I mean, because you’ve spoken to it a little bit, but, you know. Oftentimes when you’re in these organizations that are, like, multicultural or, you know, where you have just a lot of diversity within the group, you know, sometimes that leads to like, you know, some, some of the white men need to be told to, like, stand down sometimes, [00:45:00] and, you know, I mean, there’s different processes around, like, allowing for folks to take leadership and have a voice. Oftentimes that means that people who are used to having leadership need to, you know, sit back and listen sometimes. So what -- I mean --
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah, that was hard for them.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Were there a -- like, what was -- what was -- what did that look like in SLAM? Like, were those conversations had often, were people told to, like, you know, stand down? I mean, were there --
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yes.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah, mm-hmm.
SABRINE HAMMAD: They were. White men were often told to be quiet. (laughs) And they were -- for some of them it was easier. You know, you also have to be a certain white man to be willing to be in an organization like SLAM.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: That’s real.
SABRINE HAMMAD: So later on, like, the people that I came up with when -- the people I -- the white men I came up with were Jed Brandt and Christopher Day, right, they were there from the beginning, and they definitely served as mentors, I think, to a lot of us. And in that capacity I felt had -- they were more vocal, because they always taught -- you know, (inaudible), and they both had very radical politics and changed the direction (inaudible) women. But then later on when they were -- when we had other white men in the organization that came into an organization that already had this system of women leadership in place, those were very specific kind of men, like [Joseph Halen?], (inaudible), [John McCann-Doyle?], that understood that they had to, like, be, be quiet and sit back. And John McCann-Doyle -- all -- you know, like, all three of them, like John McCann-Doyle, he would sit in a meeting and he would just not even try to talk sometimes. (laughs) He was okay with, with that. I never remember having, you know, to have a conversation like, “Okay, now let a woman talk” with him. But we would do that when we would have our SLAM meetings, and I remember, like, we would be sitting around, and where we would have like a speakers’ list, like who wanted to say something. We would look for, like, let’s get, let’s get a woman. You already spoke, Mr. White Man, like, no, we want, we want women to address us, we want people of color to address us, we want older people to address us, we want younger people to address us. We were always very well aware, which is why in our meetings, you know, in some spaces which would have taken a half hour took six hours for us. (laughs) We were so aware. But yeah, we would tell white men, like, “No, that’s it. You don’t get to talk right now.” Like, “Now, you have to listen.” And we would use that word, like -- those words, like “your privilege and your ownership over this space and over conversation, you have to check that,” like, “Here’s me. I just want to make sure that so-and-so checks their privilege, because they’re talking a lot. (laughter) There’s other people here that” -- we would say stuff like that. And we could -- and, you know, there was conflict around it sometimes, but I feel like we were always very honest about change what it was. Like, I wasn’t silencing something, to silence white men because of anything personal, but I felt like we would have a discussion of how important it was for them to see what our world looks like every single day and how we’re always silenced. Because if you’re in this organization with all of us, you’re in it for one reason, but you have no idea what our world actually looks like. So yeah. And, you know, (inaudible) at that time, and I think that in general, we got it right.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. So you’ve -- you know, you mentioned it a little bit, and I kind of have it roundabout in one of the questions that I wrote out, but like, you know, folks have talked about, like, SLAM is just like fly, you know what I’m saying, like just presenting --
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah, we were.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: -- itself as fly, like there was, you know, like art and poetry and, you know, culture, and, like, Kai would like, you know, decorate the office, and it was just fly.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Could you just speak to that a little bit?
SABRINE HAMMAD: We really were. We were just the coolest thing. That’s what I was saying, like, people even maybe associated more politically with NYPIRG wouldn’t want to join them when they saw us. They’re like, “What? They’re so whack. (laughter) Like, what are these folks?” Our chant line when we got into rallies. People would be like, “Can we march with you? Can we march with you?” Can you imagine? We were definitely like the rock stars. It’s so funny to think of that. And also, especially now when you think of, like, you know, reality TV and celebrity worship as it exists, like, post-2005, [00:50:00] I feel like, it’s such a different animal, but back then, within the young, the youth activist community in New York -- and there were a lot of groups coming out at that time. CAAAV, which was an organization, I think it’s Center for Asian -- Against Asian American Violence.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Violence, yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Right? And they were -- a lot of groups. We worked with [IEC?], we worked with a lot of different groups, a lot of the different colleges. Even if they didn’t have SLAM, they would have like one or two radical groups on campus, you know, like -- about things like political prisoners and things like that. But we were the -- I feel like SLAM as an organization was the gold standard because we were large and our access to resources gave us an opportunity to get things [simple?] (inaudible), like T-shirts made (inaudible) on it, so when we roll into a space, we all dressed the same and we all, you know, would have a chant sheet that had these chants that were working off of very relevant present-day hip hop. You know. It was like that some from DMX: “Stop, drop, shut ’em down, open up shop.” Remember that song?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah, yeah. (laughs)
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah. We did a chant to that for Mumia. And then we had the flip side of that because then Kai and Ashanti would teach us old, like, Black Panther chants, and so you -- yeah. We would -- there was just like, I feel like, a look, and a lot of people saw this look. And I think what also helped us, we were very organized. For young kids, we were organized. We -- when we were going in to, you know, be loud and boisterous, we did that, and then when it was time for us to be quiet, we did that too. And then when we marched, we knew, you know, we could do a strict formation. So we didn’t look like this just, like, messy group of ragtag kids; we looked like a -- at that time and space, for our ages -- a very sophisticated machine. And I -- and yeah. We were so cool. Like, our poetry readings. Now I can reminisce, I’m like, “Yeah, we were awesome.” I always tell my kids about SLAM. Like, “Mommy, when you were in SLAM.” I’m like, “Yeah.” I think my dad can’t. (laughter)
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Word.
SABRINE HAMMAD: But yeah. Yeah, I think, like, our aesthetic had a lot to do with it, our, our popularity as an organization.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right. So SLAM had -- so SLAM was involved with like mad different activities. You have like direct action stuff, this political education, student government stuff. I was going through -- you know that there’s like SLAM archives at NYU Tamiment
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: So I was going through some of those a while ago and, like, I was seeing, like, grant applications to like the North Star Fund and --
SABRINE HAMMAD: (inaudible), yes.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: -- all type of stuff. So, like, what, what activities were you most involved in in SLAM, and what, what do you see as like significant about the work that SLAM did?
SABRINE HAMMAD: Okay, the first part. I -- the campaigns that I worked on the most were definitely -- first and foremost was all of the CUNY stuff. So very specifically, anything that was around the budget cuts, the tuition hikes, the end of financial aid, and the end of remedial education, all of those access to education, quality education issues, it was something that I was always on board with and always very strongly involved in. And that wasn’t the case with everybody. Some people really didn’t do that much of that work. When we evolved into an organization that did a lot of other projects, some folks, you know, would be in SLAM and barely did any of that work. So, you know, were doing a lot of the other things. But for me, the, the education stuff was always very important. It really is the reason why I joined, you know, was all of that access to education. And then specifically, other than that -- so that was (inaudible) from 1996 -- I mean, from 1995 to 1999 when I graduated, there was never a time that that wasn’t an issue, right, education. It wasn’t like it was one campaign that we picked up and then dropped off later on.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right. [00:55:00]
SABRINE HAMMAD: But -- I’m trying to think. So I was involved in that. And then I did a lot of the Mumia Abu-Jamal work, about freeing Mumia Abu-Jamal. When we -- you know, when we organized Mumia -- organized along with other groups to get people (inaudible) rallies, that was something that I think I was front and center on. I did a lot of that work. I did -- I traveled with other women from SLAM, and we worked against the sanctions in Iraq. That was something that I, that I was invested in.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Can you speak more specifically to that project? Because I think I saw in the archives, like, pictures from that time when you guys were traveling, and there isn’t a lot, like, written, so I couldn’t really get a lot from the archive with regards to what the actual work was. But I did see, like -- I think I saw some letters in regards to funding for the travel, and then some pictures, but could you speak more generally to, to that project and who you traveled with and what that work was?
SABRINE HAMMAD: For sure. I didn’t -- I don’t know if the people that you’ve spoken with (inaudible) attended -- do you know who went on the trip? No one has shared that?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: No.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Because I don’t know, maybe they don’t want... (laughs) (inaudible) international trip, and I [would have?] -- I have been open about my -- what’s happened. When I came back, the FBI questioned me, but maybe I can reach out to them and let them know, and then I can provide you with their names. You know what I mean? But I went with some other women from, from, from SLAM. And at that point, we had already sent people to Mexico, to UNAM. The national university in Mexico City had had like this epic strike around that time, maybe in 1998 and 1999, and it was really a very democratic people’s movement. And we had already sent people there. And we were very vocal about international politics at that point as well. Very distinctly anti-Zionist, pro-Palestinian, very distinctly, like, anti-statehood for Puerto Rico, anti-col-- like, colonialization of Puerto Rico. We had, like, that international understanding, and we would always say, like, a globalist perspective. It’s not just about others, about outside. No, this means something to us.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right.
SABRINE HAMMAD: It, it -- we made those connections. I remember one time, like, Christopher gave me the flyer -- this was later on, but when they were gearing up for the war, the second war in Iraq, and he made a flyer that spoke about funding for the war in comparison to funding to our schools and what that looked like. And it was a great flyer because it actually made those connections for people. And (inaudible) -- any time -- because now I’m involved in my children’s school, in the PTA. (inaudible) [I must do?], but -- but, you know, whenever they’re like, “Oh, we don’t have the funding,” I’m like, “Yeah, because they’re dropping bombs. Of course we don’t have the funding.” Like, I have that understanding. But at that point, we were making those connections for the larger body. So when we went to Iraq, we went with the IEC, the International (inaudible). The, the trip was led by former US Attorney General Ramsey Clark, and it was the tenth year of the Iraq sanctions. So it was in 2000; they started in 1990. And we went to just, you know, witness, basically, the devastation that happened. And we went and we brought medical supplies and school supplies. I think over $1 million worth in terms of, like, the larger collective body --
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Wow.
SABRINE HAMMAD: -- of medical supplies and school supplies to Iraq. And it was. It was an international civil disobedience, which is interesting because the whole time that I was in SLAM -- at that point I had already graduated, so the whole time I was a student at Hunter in SLAM, we had done a lot of actions. I also did a lot of work around police brutality. I have to -- that -- yeah, that was like one of my other, like, like, projects. But we had done so many things where we did civil disobediences [01:00:00] and direct actions where we would -- if there was a chance of us getting arrested. And I came -- my father would kill me if I got arrested, Amaka. Like, you know, all of the political activity I’m telling you about, I also want to say, like, half of that -- 95 percent of that was done in secret, because even though my father was political and raised us to be political. He was still, like, a very much patriarchal, like, typical Arab man, and if he knew -- if he knew -- if he heard me at these rallies, like, running through the streets chanting about burning Cuomo or Pataki or whatever fool we were talking about, or Giuliani at that time, he would have like locked me in a room forever. (laughter) So, so I, I had never, I had never done a civil disobedience where I was guaranteed arrest the four -- the entire four years that I was in SLAM. And that was actually something that when we would talk about privilege and you have that conversation about white men being in SLAM, that’s where we encouraged white men to take the lead. We were like, “Oh, you want to be part of the struggle? Go ahead, and get arrested.” Like, there was a very political discussion about that. It wasn’t haphazard. Like, we, we understood people were immigrants, they didn’t have citizenship, people had green cards --
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yep.
SABRINE HAMMAD: -- people didn’t have green cards, the people were their family’s sole breadwinner. You know, for some people it just wasn’t an option. For me, you know, I felt like if I would have gotten arrested, then I would have not been able to continue my work in SLAM.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right, right.
SABRINE HAMMAD: But then what is so interesting is, like, I didn’t want to get arrested at, like, a CUNY rally, but then they freaking go to Iraq on like an international civil disobedience where -- it was like two years of jail -- like, up to five years of jail time (laughs) and like $100,000 fine. I don’t know what I was thinking. When I think, I’m like, that’s buggin’, it’s crazy. But that’s what we -- that’s what that trip was. And when we came back, we did have a lot of difficulty. We came back -- the trip was in January of 2000. When we came back, it was like at the beginning of this new onslaught of, of attacks against CUNY. So we did try to do some work. We did some of that, and we did a -- some organizing. I was part of a lot of report-backs, and I worked with IEC for a while about it. But the truth is, is that work I’ve swept up under this new frenzy of dissent. They wanted to attack again, and it was just -- it was getting harder. We lost a lot of our core members, and the newer members coming in, you know, wonderful, wonderful people who just didn’t have as much experience, you know. So that was that.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Did those core members that you lost, did they just -- did they graduate, or what -- you said that you lost a lot of core members at that time. Where did they go?
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah, a lot of them -- yeah, a lot of them graduated. Some, some folks moved away. But a lot of folks graduated out and had to get full-time jobs.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: You know, we’re not a fraternity; like, no one pays our bills. The majority of us were supporting ourselves. Even me, when I was in SLAM, like, I could live at home, but I, I worked in my dad’s store. I was literally -- like, I was in Flatbush on, like, Saturday, and then on Sunday I had another job, I had another part-time job in the Staten Island Mall. And then, like, my senior year I was student teaching and working in my dad’s shop and still had another -- and, and was still working in student government as an actual paid employee. So we were all -- we were all struggling. There was this point in our lives -- some people had children. You know, they had to, you know, take care of that for a while. So there was a time where, you know, the initial members -- the new members became core members, right, but the initial members of SLAM, we just -- they weren’t around as much. Kai left. Like, when Kai left, I felt like even though she wasn’t there from the beginning, she was there as soon as we took over student government. So she -- or the year after. I feel like the first -- maybe she was hired within the first year, not all the way at the beginning of the year, but either towards the middle or end, or maybe in the second year that we had student government. But she quickly, [01:05:00] quickly became our glue in so many respects. I’m sure you have -- you can’t have heard anything about SLAM, right, without talking about Kai.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: I can’t imagine anyone didn’t mention her.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Everyone at Hunter’s mentioned her, yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah. So she was -- you could imagine -- like, how do you go into a house and talk about a family without talking about Mom, right? So, you know, definitely. I think that when she left, it was ha-- it, it -- we didn’t have a -- a chunk of us left with her, right? A lot of it is like geography or just the way things worked out, but it for sure did work out that way.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Do you remember who took her position after she left?
SABRINE HAMMAD: Me. (laughs)
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. Clearly you do! (laughs)
SABRINE HAMMAD: (inaudible) she was off-- she added me as an office assistant. She hired me as an office assistant the year before she left. I think that was my, my junior year, maybe, or my senior year. Or I think I had been working there two years by the time she made me... And then when she went to leave she, she hired me as office manager. And I think that (inaudible) as an office manager I did, you know, a decent job, and a lot of the younger folks, I brought in a lot of the younger folks and tried to mentor them. But I’m not Kai! Like, at that point -- I was like 22, 23 -- the only movement I was a veteran of was SLAM. Kai came up -- she had been in the Black Panthers, she had -- like, or affiliated with them -- the BLA -- (inaudible) had history! I, you know, a 23-year-old girl can’t compare to that. (laughs) You know, and all of us, like, we all had history that we had all had, you know, struggles and things like that, but there was something that her and Ashanti -- I’m sure you heard about Ashanti --
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: -- at that time they were partnered -- that they brought that just couldn’t be... You know, there, there is magic to our, to like, the wisdom that our elders bring us. And she probably was the age I am now, so the fact, like, that I [didn’t?] call her an (inaudible), you know, but were just maybe a little bit older than me. But when she left, I felt like it was harder, maybe, to maintain a lot of the more radical. We still did the work, we still did a lot of the USG work, but that’s where somehow SLAM always won. If I could say it like that, right. Like at the beginning was between SLAM and USG, SLAM won, like. Towards the end, USG would win. And I think that that’s what made it -- that’s maybe where a lot of people were a little more disenchanted and how [that it?] has shifted a little bit --
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Well --
SABRINE HAMMAD: -- and it was harder for people.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: And also, I guess, you know, I guess losing open admissions had to have been extremely demoralizing as well.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah, like we lost the battle. Like, what -- and that’s what we had initially started. Even though I will tell you that by the time a lot of that was happening and then like the renewed attack against CUNY, the people that were involved were, were new, so it didn’t affect them like someone like me or maybe Rachél, who had been a part of it -- because Rachél stayed around just as long as I did. A lot of the other folks had already been -- I was like one of the longer, longer-standing members because after my four years of education I still continued to work in SLAM, which wasn’t necessarily the case with most people. But it was very -- it was very demoralizing I think in the larger scope. In the day-to-day we still felt like there was still so much work to be done that we couldn’t dwell. And we -- you know, and we didn’t. Like, come on. Like, you know, while you’re talking about, like Israel, like the politics of Israel, you don’t lose just like an international Goli-- you know, Goliath, right. And, you know, the military arm and all of that. So at some point we almost had to be like, mm, yeah, Giuliani, you’re nothing. Do you what I mean?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah, yeah, mm-hmm.
SABRINE HAMMAD: One time, you know, questions, like, “Do you support” -- like when the FBI questioned me (inaudible), like, oh shit, what did I do to myself -- excuse my language. (laughter)
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: I’m good.
SABRINE HAMMAD: But I’m like, no, I don’t, but what [01:10:00] about the people, but they didn’t -- they don’t care. Yeah.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: So SLAM was on, you know -- I mean, really, to, to my perception it seems like really just City College, but I guess SLAM being on other campuses, like, what was your perception of the other chapters in comparison to Hunter? Like, how were they different?
SABRINE HAMMAD: I feel like Hun-- I feel -- I know that there was something at Brooklyn College, right, and at LaGuardia Community College.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Mm-hmm. And City College.
SABRINE HAMMAD: And City College, yes. I meant like other than them. So LaGuardia was Slab. Have you introduced -- have you interviewed Slab?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: I haven’t interviewed him, but I’m in contact with him.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Oh my God, did you know he actually changed his name? We didn’t know him as Vlad, and he changed his name to Slab because we were a student-organized action movement. And I don’t know if this is true, but he insisted he changed it to Slab because he’s student liberation action brother. (laughter) He’s so dedicated. (laughter) I love him. But we -- I think that -- I think that other chapters of SLAM, in comparison -- maybe in comparison to Hunter were very small. Right? On their campuses I feel like they still did a lot of good work. In 2004 or 2005, I was working for the union, the union, the Professional Staff Congress as an organizer, and the union is a union that represents the faculty and staff at all CUNYs, at all CUNY schools. And I was at LaGuardia Community College, literally looking into the cafeteria and saw -- and this is like 2004, 2005 -- saw a sticker that said, like, “LaGuardia SLAM.”
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Oh wow.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Like, it was so crazy. Like, again, like this is before like camera phones were [fancy?]. I don’t even know if I had a cell phone at that time. But it was like, you know, it -- they have it -- everyone had a presence at their own school. I wasn’t on those other campuses, so it’s hard for me to really gauge what they were able to do in terms of like on their campus --
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right.
SABRINE HAMMAD: -- but I know that for us, it was important to us to have people at other CUNYs that we could work with. And even other schools, too, like the College of Staten Island later on, we were working with -- there was a newspaper there called the Voice, and there was a brother there named [Aman Said?], and his wife now -- they’re married and have children -- her name then, they were just college students, was [Renee Marhang?], Marhang. And they weren’t part of SLAM, but they were radicals, and so when we needed to do CUNY-wide movements, we contacted them.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right.
SABRINE HAMMAD: So there were people that even though they didn’t have SLAM, had, had similar politics and became our partners in crime. But yeah. But, you know, City College -- have people talked about like when City College became a chapter and all of what was happening then?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Well, I’ve only -- I haven’t really talked to that many people from City College. Later on today I’m going to interview somebody, and I interviewed Brad Sigal. From what I’ve heard, it seems as if the City College chapter was way more masculine. Like I don’t really hear a lot of -- like when people mention people that were in that chapter, it tends to be all men. Like, it seems like just a very masculine chapter. It seems smaller, and it also seemed as if because they never got student government, the conditions there were just very different there in regards to like their vulnerability to attack.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yes. thats so true for that space, the Shakur/Morales center.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right, right.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Which recently, just recently got shut down again.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah. They, they took it back. They’re trying to -- they -- I think they’re using the room for, like -- I mean, because it just shows you like, you know, the transformation of CUNY, but they’re using it as like, I don’t know, career development center or something ridiculous like that.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah. And it -- but you know, at City College -- and I’m sharing this because I feel like since you’re talking about the larger movement -- I’m not just trying to share like the SLAM gossip, right, but I feel like if you’re going to have this understanding of how we operated, you needed to understand some of our conflicts too.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: So when I was coming up in SLAM at the beginning, one of my very first rallies that I took the lead in [01:15:00] was they arrested an activist by the name of David Suker. Have you heard of him at City College?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah, I’ve talked to him. I haven’t inter-- I’m probably going to interview him next week, but yeah, mm-hmm.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah, right on. He -- (inaudible) -- and I still remember the chant we, we were chanting, like, “I am, you are, we’re all David Suker.” I still remember it so vividly. But they had arrested him because I -- I think he was the one that they said jumped up on the table during the board of trustees meeting. So -- so there was like this group of -- and I think that you’re right -- male, white male activists at City College. So then, Amaka, after they kind of like fizzle down and there was a point where it was just very clear, Hunter was the slam, like was SLAM. Right? So there was -- so maybe after ’97 it had died down at City College. There were still radical students that we connected with, but we didn’t necessarily see them as SLAM anymore. They didn’t necessarily identify as SLAM. And then I want to say in 2000, [Hank Williams?] restarted a SLAM chapter at Hunter College [sic?], along with -- I’m trying to think of the names of the women. There’s a woman there by the name of [Sydney Jordan Cooley?], and she was -- and there were -- there was another woman, woman. Maybe when you -- maybe if you speak to people that were part of City College, they’re remember their names, you know.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: I’m interviewing Hank later on today, so I’ll ask him.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Oh, right on. Well, Hank, [Mr.?] Hank started a charter at City College, but there was not -- he just kind of was like, “Okay, I want to start a new SLAM charter, and it’s going to be at City College.” And I remember at Hunter’s SLAM, there was a lot of conflict about that. And even, you know, years later, a lot of people felt that he just, you know, took our name. So I feel like, you know, City College SLAM had to -- so when I talked about the white women, I feel like I’m talking about the second version. So I feel like now maybe that helps with the picture. Like, I hopefully offered a little clarity, because there was -- there were like two waves of SLAM at City College. There was the initial organic one that came out of CUNY Coalition Against the Cuts and was working with Hunter and were together and doing all of that stuff, and then when Hunter’s SLAM came up, they of course -- you know, that, I think, was more of a citywide agreement. That’s why there was someone at Brooklyn College and at LaGuardia and City. But then once those SLAM chapters were gone, for whatever reason, you know, one or two or three or four years later, he comes, Hank Williams comes by and says, “I want to start another SLAM chapter.” And a lot of people weren’t happy with it. Yeah, a lot of people felt like at that point they had (inaudible), like, we had [just done?] -- we’re like, “Why don’t you just start another organization? Why do you want it to be SLAM?” You know, and I think that that also speaks to by the time he came around, we looked different. So even like the understanding of having something that may -- that could have maybe -- I know this is super-ambitious -- look like SNCC, right, and was all over the South, all over the country, the new -- a lot of the folks that were in SLAM at that point and that were part of the decision-making process were maybe -- I don’t want to -- I don’t want to say in any way that sounds wrong, just I kind of feel like we looked different. We looked different, which maybe I think contributed maybe to part of the conflict.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Did I just confuse you more? I don’t know --
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah, I’m not -- I’m not exactly sure what you mean by looking different. I mean, I know that there was -- I guess --
SABRINE HAMMAD: They weren’t as radical at that point. That’s what I mean. Like, yeah, like we weren’t as radical. At one point I made the very bad joke that we started to look like a people of color NYPIRG. (laughter) But, but -- because they were -- you know what, they were -- all throughout college, I have to say, like people knew it, they were like my punching bag because they just upset me so much. I just felt like they were the epitome of, like, white-privilege liberalism.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Right, like the -- like those white-privilege liberals that really don’t do anything for you. And so I always had it out for NYPIRG. I was -- any time I had jokes, I was cracking them against NYPIRG. So when I -- there was a point, and [01:20:00] it was specifically when I came back. I had lived overseas for two years, and when I came back, I did come back and say, like, what happened? Like, what happened? (inaudible), you know, where’s like the radical politics behind it? They had lost some of it. That’s what I mean.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay, all right. Do you -- are there any, like, significant -- I want to say, like, significant actions or, or kind of experience that you haven’t spoken to yet that you feel like you should speak to in regards to SLAM? So like, I mean --
SABRINE HAMMAD: Have people spoken about Amadou Diallo and the (inaudible) street?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Not really, so if you can speak to that.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah. When Amadou Diallo was shot 41 times by the police murderers, we were devastated as a community. It was so personal to us, and it was something that we hadn’t experienced before. We didn’t -- you know, we didn’t have a Malcolm, we didn’t have a Martin, we didn’t live in those days --
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right.
SABRINE HAMMAD: -- where we had the leaders. Like, we had Al Sharpton, and most of thought he was a joke, right? So -- and this man was not a political activist, but he spoke -- his story spoke to us because we felt that it just exemplified the brutality in which, like, the ruling class treated us, our people. Like, we felt like a brother had died, like, our brother. It was very hard. And we went to basically like a Day of Rage, right? Like, the verdict came out. I --
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SABRINEHAMMAD2
SABRINE HAMMAD: -- protest that you see around the world, where for that day -- and I don’t -- you know, I’m sure that there were a million political decisions made about what would be allowed and what would not be allowed, but that was the day that we took the streets out of rage. And we all almost got arrested like three times that day. Like we all -- these are like the running away from -- like, I ran away from cops that day. We threw stuff into the street. We blocked traffic. We -- in terms of just like an action or a situation, they -- you know, and then there were -- there were definitely formulated planned actions. We had -- a lot of SLAM members got arrested. They closed I want to say the Brooklyn Bridge. They’d stand in traffic with a lot, with like a citywide coalition of people.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: I think I read about that. I think there -- yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah. We (inaudible) -- I wanted -- like, we were on fire. Like we as a people and a community were on fire. And it was just like so emotional and tearful and -- it was -- that felt -- like, I’ll never forget those days. Those were, you know, I remember being -- you know, the cops like telling us to stay on the sidewalk, and that’s like the first time like I actually had the nerve to like curse out a cop. I was so angry, and I like -- I cursed at him, like, “F you, you’re not going to tell me what to do” -- like so angry. And had like people, you know, people like pulling me, “Shut up, Sabrine,” like. But then two minutes later the same people cursing at the same cop. And then like literally, like, taking, you know, taking like garbage cans, like, and going into the streets. That’s not -- that day, like, we didn’t allow them to pen us in. Like, we refused. As a -- as a political organization, SLAM consistently and always felt like they were getting penned in by the cops at protests and rallies. There were some times where the decision was made to stay within just (inaudible). Maybe we didn’t have enough people to (inaudible). We were smart, you know what I mean? People don’t always think of that stuff. But it was -- we definitely challenged it very often. And I think that was the first day -- like, it wasn’t even a political decision. Like, we were all just so filled with anger and hurt that we, we didn’t -- like, anything the police said, we literally just did the opposite. Yeah, that was, that was rough. And then (inaudible) I remember in terms of like that protest was large, SLAM had -- it was kind of like the first time that SLAM did something that was national, on a national scale, that we played such a large role in. We, we only were responsible for bringing up the majority of people that were coming from New York on buses to that rally. We brought hundreds of people to that rally. So that was something that -- there were a lot. We were part of so many things. You know, and then smaller, more artistic things, like having papier-mâché, like, piñata of, like, Giuliani, (inaudible) beat. (laughter) There was a lot of that stuff. Does that answer your question, or were you --
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: -- (inaudible) something else?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: No, no, no, that totally answers it. Do you remember, because you mentioned it just now, but like some of the organizations, some of the community organizations that you guys were in coalition with, that you guys would do, you know, rallies, programming, whatever, with?
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah. We (inaudible) coalition against police brutality. We worked with them. We worked with CAAAV. We worked with, like the -- I feel like it’s just like (inaudible), but (inaudible--addiction?) Organization. We worked with GUPS, the General Union of Palestinian Students. We worked with -- oh, citywide, we worked with everybody everywhere in the city. Malcolm X, MXG, like Malcolm X Grassroots Movement. Who -- I just feel like -- there was also that -- I’m trying to think of the organization that Kamau Franklin and [Amanda Ranier?] were part of (inaudible).
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Well, Kamau was in MXG, but was it also Student Power -- Student Power, something like that?
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah, SPM, Student Power Movement. Thank you! Have you interviewed Kamau?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: I’m actually interviewing him on Friday. And I was, I was in MXG for a few years, so I know a lot of --
SABRINE HAMMAD: Oh, (inaudible). Oh, you know Lamumba Bandele?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Mm-hmm.
SABRINE HAMMAD: I love Lamumba! I love -- he [00:05:00] -- I, I genuine-- he actually, when I came into Hunter, he wasn’t at Hunter when I came, but he always still looks out for me. I love Lamumba. I still (inaudible) say he’s like my Facebook friend. He’s such a wonderful human being. But yeah.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah, it’s interesting for me, because on one hand it’s like, you know, for the dissertation, you know, I’m very focused on, like, talking to SLAM people, but one of the things that most got me interested in SLAM generally was just this era with all these organizations, you know --
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: -- and just, just, you know, the collaboration. This is a time in which a lot of the organizations that are still doing work are really emerging, and, like, just the networks of like organizing, and so --
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah. And the family, the family of it, like the community. Like, MXG was part of our community, right? And yeah. And then, you know -- do you know (inaudible)? Maybe because my sister came out in that world of, like, poetry and spoken word at Hunter, but there were like all of those artists that later then became, like, [Willie Frogomo?] and [Tony Mezina?] and Asha Bandele and [Picala?] and (inaudible) and, and all of these folks that were part of that movement, that artistic movement, you know, at the Blue Moon Café (inaudible). They all had, you know -- they all in some ways associated with these different organizations. They were like our artistic arm of the revolution.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Right? That’s crazy, yeah.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah, so I mean, you know, I have -- you know, for my dissertation and just my timeline with that, like, I have to keep it very focused, but I just feel like for a longer-term project, I just feel like there’s just something really compelling about that period that isn’t necessarily, like, written down, in terms of all of these people and organizations in relationship to each other. You know?
SABRINE HAMMAD: You know who -- have you seen -- there is an, a documentary about Bed-Study, Brooklyn, during that time. Have you seen that documentary?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: No, what -- about Bed-Stuy around that time?
SABRINE HAMMAD: About Bed-- yeah.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Uh-uh.
SABRINE HAMMAD: It’s -- Amaka, I’m going to look it up and see if I can give you at least the name or try to --
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay.
SABRINE HAMMAD: I -- it just speaks about -- it speaks about kind of like the black arts movement in that time, but it’s so funny because all of the people that they mention, like [Howlet Clouise, Ertriz?] Mos Def, Erica (inaudible). If we weren’t fans -- we were all fans, but then also, like, we had, you know, Dead Prez perform at our street fairs. They performed at Hunter -- at student -- like, what?!
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right. And like Black August, you know.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah. And like Mos Def performed -- Mos Def performed, and I think he emceed one of (inaudible) concerts.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Was it -- was the documentary Brooklyn Boheme?
SABRINE HAMMAD: Oh yes, it was.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah. I’ve seen that. That’s -- I mean, it’s -- that’s interesting because it’s, it’s mostly about Fort Greene, but it kind of --
SABRINE HAMMAD: Oh, it is Fort Greene. You’re right, I’m sorry.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah. But, I mean, it speaks to Bed-Stuy a little bit, but it’s mostly Fort Greene. And I think -- I mean, for me, I liked it, but it’s a piece, you know what I’m saying? It’s just a piece.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: And so I’m -- I just -- it just --
SABRINE HAMMAD: It’s a piece of that story.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Right, right. And I’m just interested in seeing something that’s almost more holistic, that kind of speaks to like the different relationships between, you know, artists and movement folks and different organizations and different movements, and -- yeah, all of that. (laughs) So --
SABRINE HAMMAD: My God, yeah.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: So maybe for a long-term project. Maybe, maybe (laughter) down the line. I have to -- I want to get my degree first and finish.
SABRINE HAMMAD: That’s true. Right on.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. So I only have a few, just a few more questions. In terms of the perception of SLAM by the student body at Hunter, did that change over time? Like, do you --
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay, can you speak to that?
SABRINE HAMMAD: I felt that -- I felt that at the beginning -- we always had our haters, but as CUNY policy changed and a lot of the people who would naturally lean toward supporting us, who were disenfranchised people of color, were then -- were, like, the working poor, they were collectively shut out of CUNY, right?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Mm-hmm.
SABRINE HAMMAD: So over the years, slowly, as the remediation policies and the cuts to financial aid and the increase in tuition, as they took hold on what CUNY looked like -- especially Hunter, because Hunter was considered one of like the flag-- like the flagship schools of CUNY, so there was this [00:10:00] push to turn it into, like, Ivy League -- Ivy League is kind of a joke, but to definitely take it out of the hands of the people. There was a point where, you know, CUNY looked different, Hunter looked different, and you could tell because people were not stopping by at our tables. It became an uphill battle. There was a new president at Hunter, her name was Jennifer Raab, she gave us a really hard time. And yeah, we definitely lost towards the end a lot of our support base.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: You know, SLAM, for a student organization, had a really -- like a relatively long lifespan for a student organization. Why do you think that SLAM lasted as long as it did?
SABRINE HAMMAD: Because we had a space. Yeah, we had a space and we had resources, and so even though I think that when members graduated -- so what would normally happen, if we were a regular organization, like, you know, one set of members would graduate, and then that’s it, they were gone; there was nothing to hold the organization together anymore. You know, there were like one or two or three stragglers left, and then so the organization would just dissipate. Because we had the student government offices and those resources, we were able to recruit people and we were able to get people who were initially involved in student government to do SLAM. And so I think that that’s part of the reason why, you know, we lasted longer and we -- that group definitely did so much important work. I never want to sound as if I dismiss the hard, the really hard work that that later group did -- which I was a part of, to an extent -- but it, it was, it had already started looking different, and it kind of like prolonged the death of SLAM, I feel like, and made it less (inaudible) and less just going out one shot. It took a couple of years where we kept on like revving up, like before the elections in the spring, there’d be like this big push, and then we -- there was just an onslaught of attacks. Like, Jennifer Raab was vicious with SLAM. She, she -- it -- I think she was responsible for them losing the student government. You know? And so -- and then there was a new -- you know, a whole new set of attacks against CUNY. And the school looks different. So in 1995 when I walked in, I was literally getting people to sign petitions for Mumia Abu-Jamal, right, and I would be able to stop people, and I would tell you, the majority of people, or close to majority, would sign the petition. You know, those kids that had to organize in 2000 and -- oh my God, after September 11th, like the people that organized after that thing, you know, our school looked different. We had this whole new white community in our school that literally -- I -- you know, we were doing things about like tuition hikes, and I will never forget, this one kid was like, “I don’t care if they raise the tuition; my dad pays for my tuition.”
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Wow.
SABRINE HAMMAD: “It’s not going to mean anything to me. Like, $500 doesn’t mean anything.” That’s who we got! So what do we do with that?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah. By the time that, you know, you graduated and -- or not just graduated, but by the time that you left, like, SLAM, when you were no longer working at CUNY and you had graduated --
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: -- how would you describe yourself politically. Like, you know, I guess just speaking to the ways in which SLAM may have, you know, helped shape or develop you politically. How, how was it when you -- by the time you left, how would you describe yourself politically?
SABRINE HAMMAD: I think that I came in as, you know, believing in freedom and resolution like very useful ideas, but I left, and still today, just believe in human liberation. And, and as I said earlier, self-determination. Like, I’m all about self-deter-- you know, my kids are -- my kids, if you hear them speak, it’s so evident even in the way my kids speak that that’s all I -- you know, I’m about. My daughter -- can I tell you a funny story real quick?
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah, yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: I feel like it just speaks to who I am, and it’s not by accident. Like, it’s not by accident that I’m this way, and it’s not because of, like, a lack of anything, it’s like with a very strong political education that I believe this. But my daughter -- and I put this up on Facebook the other time -- she was telling me that all the girls in her class (inaudible) like to touch her hair, and I’m like, “Well, what do you do when, you know -- what do you think about that, Janine?” And she’s just like, “Well, Mommy, I [00:15:00] don’t like to be mean to my friends, but I tell them not to touch me when I don’t want them to. I don’t (inaudible) my friends, but they have to respect how I feel, right?”
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Mm-hmm. (laughs)
SABRINE HAMMAD: My daughter’s seven. (laughs) And I feel like that’s, that’s who I, I’m raising, and it’s who I believe. Like, I just believe 100 percent in self-determination. Like, you want that? If it doesn’t harm anybody, do it. You know. I’m one, I’m like, oh, these people want to (inaudible), let them (inaudible). Who cares? That’s really what I’m about, like, people, you know, determining for themselves, like, what they want to be, recognize that, or grouped as, and how they want to live, and as long as it doesn’t hurt anybody, respecting that. And that was -- you know, that was -- from, from the vernacular behind it, the language behind it is (inaudible). And the respect to it. You know, I was raised Muslim, so I probably -- and I still identify as Muslim, but a lot of my radical politics, I probably wouldn’t have that if I’d just stayed in like a Palestinian nationalist ideology. Like a lot of my ideas about gender and, and, and, like, gender relationships, that comes specifically from SLAM.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Can you speak, I guess generally, to, you know, post-SLAM, like the movement work or just the type of work that you’ve been involved in since then?
SABRINE HAMMAD: Sure. After I left SLAM -- first I taught. I was overseas for two years when I still considered myself an active member of SLAM. I feel like I was on sabbatical. And I taught for two years in Jordan. And I came back and worked with SLAM again. But then when I left that, when I left SLAM at that point, I needed another job, and I became a union organizer for the Professional Staff Congress, and so I did that organizing work. And I was able to maintain a lot of my (inaudible) CUNY work through my work at the PSC, you know, in the capacity of being an organizer for the PSC, but also outside of that. I still maintain like a lot of connections to folks, even not necessarily the ones that were in SLAM, but when SLAM was gone, rather, I still maintained my connections to folks and was still part of a lot of things. So I think that that’s what I stayed working on with CUNY the most. And I worked there for five years, and it was three and a half years ago. It was in 2009 when I left that job. And have made a decision to, like, be at home and be with my children and raise them for -- the goal was like five to seven years, and then, you know, and then get back into the work. So I think of myself still as politically active, because I’m still aware of what goes on and I still attend rallies and I will still help different organizations when I can, but I made a very conscious decision, you know == and I said, like, I have the rest of my life to continue doing this political work. I just want to make sure I can handle -- I want to be there for my children outside of that world --
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah, okay.
SABRINE HAMMAD: -- in these formative years. But yeah. So (inaudible), here at three and a half, I’ve like created a political activist break. (laughter) Because I was all in. You can imagine, start talking to me. I was all in.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah.
SABRINE HAMMAD: (inaudible). Let me take a break, and then I can get back at it.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Mm-hmm. What do you, what do you think is the legacy or the, the significance of SLAM?
SABRINE HAMMAD: Um... Legacy of SLAM...
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Or, or, I guess, or I guess more generally, if that’s a weird question, like, what lessons did you learn most from that period? Like, what did you take from that that you’re still -- that you still carry with you?
SABRINE HAMMAD: Other than like my very specific, like, very open-minded politics, also -- and I think Irini asked me a similar question, and I answered the idea of community. I think that’s what my answer was. Just this larger idea of community and the importance of building, building political organizations and empowering the most disenfranchised to be able to dictate [00:20:00] the, the voice and the tone of that political organization. And I think that for years to come, students have -- that have to fight this like very uphill battle against corporatization, and we, we were kind of the vanguard of that. The political movements before us, the ones that we idolized and understood, most of them were about, about racism and gender issues. And, you know, it actually was kind of a very funny joke that I ended up working for a union, because I was never really a big union person. The only reason why I chose the union job was because it was CUNY-affiliated, and I wanted, I wanted to keep working around CUNY issues. Like, it really is a passion for me. So outside of unions and the way that they organize around workers, I think that we were -- what we see now, that the corporatization of all of like our public and communal access -- like, programs and different things -- we were the first people to fight against that. So I think that in the future -- or, amongst the first. Definitely not the first, but amongst like that first wave. So I think like in the future when students are going to have to keep fighting this thing, they can look to SLAM and learn from our mistakes. Right? And a lot -- you know, and we’ve made a lot -- we did make some mistakes, but also we were very principled, and I think that that’s something that people -- and I always say that. I really believe that, and I don’t think that it’s naïve. We really held ourselves to a very high standard and were very principled as an organization, and that’s something that I’m proud to have been a part of, and I think that’s a wonderful legacy, to teach people to actually stand for what you believe in and don’t get in bed with the enemy, not even a little bit. Not even a little bit. Don’t even get -- don’t even even get a quick feel. (laughter)
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: All right. Well, is there anything else that you’d, you know, like to say about -- I mean, my questions are done.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Thank you, Amaka. I feel like I, I, I spoke so much. I don’t have anything else to say. If you have any other questions, please let me know. You know, either through email communications or now you have my number. You really can call me. Before two o’clock is best because you don’t have to hear the chorus of children behind me (laughter) when my kids are home.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Yeah. My kids are like kind of sick this morning, and I was like, “Oh, I’m not going to be able to do an interview if y’all are home. Go to school.” (laughter)
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. Well yeah, no, that’s cool. I mean, I -- this has been a like really excellent interview. Like I’ve --
SABRINE HAMMAD: Thank you.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: -- gotten so much from it, and so I thank you for, you know, taking the time out. I know it’s not easy to kind of like carve away two hours to speak to some random person about SLAM, but --
SABRINE HAMMAD: Oh, thank you. I’m so happy that you’re doing this work.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Yeah, me too. I mean, I’m -- you know, the interviewing is, is some of the best part about it, you know, and the archives are dope, it’s just, you know, there’s a lot of politics within my department and within my committee and stuff about this project, but the actual research is, is amazing and is great, so I’m, I’m really grateful that I get to, you know -- that this gets to be my research. I’m really grateful for that.
SABRINE HAMMAD: You know, Amaka, I have a box from the archive that’s old photos.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Oh, okay.
SABRINE HAMMAD: That didn’t go into the (inaudible) library. And I’m not putting it in there. (laughs) But if you want -- if you want to maybe talk about finding a way to get the box to you or you coming and seeing some of the stuff, we have a lot of like crazy pictures in there. So I have a box, just so you know.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay, that’s -- yeah, that’s wonderful.
SABRINE HAMMAD: All right? (laughs)
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: All right. Well, I’ll probably, you know, hit you up sometime in the future about, you know, perhaps, you know, viewing some of the stuff in that box maybe, or -- yeah, sometime in the future.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Right on. No problem. That’s great.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: Okay. All right, well, have a great day. Thank you again.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Thank you. Thank you so much.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: All right. Peace.
SABRINE HAMMAD: Have a great day. Be safe.
AMAKA OKECHUKWU: All right. Thanks, bye.
END OF AUDIO FILE
Original Format
Digital
Duration
01:46: 30
Okechukwu, Amaka. “Oral History Interview With Sabrine Hammad.”, CUNY DIGITAL HISTORY ARCHIVE, accessed March 10, 2026, https://stephenz.tailc22a4b.ts.net/s/cdha/item/2007