Interview conducted by former Vice Chancellor Julius C.C. Edelstein with former CUNY Chancellor Albert Bowker
Item
LA GUARDIA AND WAGNER ARCHIVES
06.008.1.438
INTERVIEW WITH ALBERT H. BOWKER 9-25-86 by Julius C.C. Edelstein
NOTE:
JE:
whether CUNY
to be a university,
university wanted to be it,
university, w
you through t
the part of t
These are notes on a conversation with Bowker.
EXCESSIVE ECHO
The question
is today a university or a system, whether it was intended
and whether the people who are now part of the
and what the public expected. It'sa
hile it functions were of course immensely strengthened by
he graduate center, and other accretions and definitions on
he chancellor. But there's a strong feeling by some of the
presidents that...and by some that it's not a university but should be,
and by some t
thoughts int
AB: We
question mean
JE: We
definition of
AB: We
characterized
and so forth.
generally as
to be regarde
really presen
that's kind o
hat it's not a university and should not be. What were your
he early days?
1, I don't know really. Why don't you talk about what the
s a minute?
1,
it,
the university in the classically...in the usual
central planning as well as budgeting.
1, I guess I may not...a university is usually
by graduate work, professional work, research activities,
The community colleges are not what is ever thought of
a university, so that to some extent the City University has
das a system, it seems to me. Of course, they weren't
table to the City University in those years. Actually,
f hard to know. Is Berkeley a university or not?
JE: Berkeley is a university, yes.
AB: Well, that may be. Is the University of California a
university?
JE: No, it's a system.
AB: A system of universities.
JE: That's right. Well, you don't have to go that far. SUNY is a
system.
AB: Yes.
JE: And each one gets its budget separately, and each one is
individually accountable, and there's very little, a minimum of central
planning.
AB: I don't know that there's more or less than we have. Do you
really think so?
JE: I mean, it's in large measure the planning was done by the
budget, the State Budget Bureau, but it certainly is...
LA GUARDIA AND WAGNER ARCHIVES 06.008.1.438
AB: It drove us, too.
JE: I mean, it's a question, it's resolved itself into such
questions as does the central office have the power to reallocate
budgets?
AB: Yes, of course it has that.
JE: Well, that's a university.
AB: But it had more than at one time. Now CUNY is supposed to
have that with the new flexibility.
JE: Yes. I don't know whether they...
AB: I mean, I really guess I'd like to know what presidents who
are for and against it have in mind.
JE: I mean...
AB: I think it would be a mistake, a serious mistake to
decentralize graduate instruction any further.
JE: Yes.
AB: And there is of course still talk about that.
JE: Yes, I think that's one of the things...
AB: Larry himself is not absolutely convinced that the new
deal...I haven't mentioned this to anybody.
JE: No, this is just for my book.
AB: What?
JE: This is just for my book. Who thinks it maybe should be
decentralized, graduate work, further.
AB: Larry...
JE: Museola, the deputy.
AB: Museola. That's the Brooklyn point of view, that's what Hess
thinks.
JE: CUNY has been able to enter the ranks of recognized serious
universities, even more in some ways than SUNY, because of the graduate
center (inaudible) one of the people who who was heavily involved with
Ben Gurion University, his name is Gelber, who has among other things was
sort of chief academic officer under Johnny Toe at Stoneybrook for a long
time, also was on the review, middle states review of the University of
Maryland at Baltimore, last spring. So when I talked to him, it took us
LA GUARDIA AND WAGNER ARCHIVES 06.008.1.438
quite a while to get around to Ben Gurion, because these other topics
were more interesting, but anyway...
AB: Of course, of course.
JE: Anyway, you know, he really thinks a graduate center puts the
City University...he was saying what a genius I was, which of course I
always love to hear, but the graduate center gives some respect to it...
AB: True.
JE: The graduate center really put the City University right in
the core of major (inaudible) in this country, and made out of in some
senses what appeared to be nothing, and that's really quite an
accomplishment, and it did a lot better than I thought it would. And I
think in that sense, I think now...the question then is whether the
graduate school graduate center is an integral part of the central office
or whether it's up and running as a separate institution, and I guess in
some ways I thought it would be stronger in the future if it had some
type of identity, which is why I made (inaudible) college president, and
that institutionalized it better. On the other hand, it does appear that
it still has to be regarded as kind of a special pet of the central
administration. Joe would say it is still getting kind of preferential
treatment.
AB: What?
JE: Well, if it does.
AB: Yes.
JE: It was line allocations and every other thing.
AB: Yes.
JE: But now, for instance, if obviously the people who most
strongly think that it ought to be a system and treat it as a system are
Shalela and Hess, and...not to some extent, to a major extent by Siegel,
then the institutions that have gotten some recognition and they would
like to have more graduate work and also independent political action to
secure their budgets. But at Hunter, along with the graduate school,
they've got the best students. But that would be at the expense of the
others.
AB: Yes, and I think the main reason for existence is to put away
an in between...I mean, the main reason for existence is really not to
have people go independently politically, but to have all the
institutions go together. So recognition is...I mean, that's what a
system is for, not a university
JE: I think they would like to be university centers.
AB: Well, it seems to me that the university center concept in New
York is just so-so, that in a way it hasn't produced. I mean, it's true
LA GUARDIA AND WAGNER ARCHIVES 06.008.1.438
that Stoneybrook and Buffalo both have some elements of distinction, but
neither one is a major university center in the sense that...
JE: Stands further.
AB: Well, it wouldn't even be in the top 20 or even...they're
stronger in science in CUNY, in a way a little different, but CUNY on the
whole is a better graduate school. Unless you say science is the only
thing that matters, which is of course true.
JE: Naturally you would say that. But you're not supposed to say
that, so...but well, I mean I think there's also the fact that it
protects places like Lehman and York and other places that have problems,
having either a system or a university, that it is the concern of the
central office that these others...and certainly that would be the...if
there were a public policy on it, that would be the public policy.
AB: Sure. But I think both the system and the university concept
kind of protect them. The doctoral programs that are delegated to the
colleges, which are obvious ones I suppose...
JE: There are 2-3.
AB: What?
JE: Public administration at John Jay...
AB: Yes, it's pretty mediocre so far, no distinction.
JE: Civics at City.
AB: Well, that's really true there too. I mean, there isn't any
evidence where they'll say they don't have the money, resources, and so
forth. In order to really do one of those things well, I'm not sure they
can do any better at City. I don't know, but so far nobody's
really...what Donna wants to do, I really...she really wants to start a
whole lot of professional programs. She herself comes out of Maxwell
School, which I think is probably not as important as it was once.
JE: Yes, that's the general perception.
AB: And in general probably in the end it will yield to the
leadership of the policy oriented schools, although it hasn't happened
yet. And like the Kennedy School and the Berkeley School and the
Maryland School, for that matter, and she wants to get into big MPAs and
education degrees and so forth, and that's all mildly useful. Mildly,
but certainly no quality, no distinction. You never heard of a school
being famous because it gives an MPA. Really, I mean, they're kind of
low level things that she has in mind to do. I never really talked it
through with her. I know Joe is not very keen on it, and I don't know
whether Baruch is really making the most it can out of the opportunities
in the business community. That would be hard to say. It certainly
never did. Siegel is probably better than most people they had, although
I don't know.
LA GUARDIA AND WAGNER ARCHIVES 06.008.1.438
JE: They haven't had many. And the ones they did have were not
very good. Well, that's a good thoughtful discussion of the subject. I
think that you make a good point which I haven't really focused on. It
depends on what you mean and from what angle you come at the question.
Those who most strenuously advocated being a system means what they
really want is a virtual, free-standing independence.
AB: Yes. But a strong system wouldn't give them that. Maybe SUNY
is kind of a weak system.
JE: It is.
AB: But I'll tell you that every time we got caught operating
politically independently at the University of California, we had our
asses whipped. Of course, we all did it, but we didn't always get
caught.
JE: It all depends on how strong the California system is.
AB: Transfer.
JE: And that's true here, too. I mean, Shalela gets labeled a
lot, but if there were another chancellor and if she weren't she...
AB: Last time I talked to her about it, which may be a year or so
ago, she said that she wouldn't mind being more a member of the team in
terms of Albany, but she never really knew what the chancellor was up to.
JE: Well, that's what she said to me in my interview with her
recently, exactly what she said, almost in the same words. (inaudible)
remember her words.
AB: Yes, but I haven't really dug into it.
JE: You see, the way it affects me is when I talk about the City
University and have to look at changes that have taken place there, I
have some idea what the terms meant.
AB: You know my famous statement about long range planning, it's
easier to take a step in the right direction than to set long range goals
on where you're going.
JE: I remember the famous story of the California press.
AB: What was that about?
JE: Whenever they couldn't make a decision, then the board of the
California press, of which you were a member, you would say, now, let's
see how this relates to our long range goals. That's the end of that.
AB: Well, anyway, so that I suppose it would be fair to say that I
never put a lot of emphasis on a sharp definition of the difference
between the two, but on the whole, SUNY is regarded as a system by the
LA GUARDIA AND WAGNER ARCHIVES 06.008.1.438
academic community. But that would not preclude it having more than one
university, serious university center, but it would not be wise to have
any duplication of graduate work.
JE: (inaudible)
AB: What?
JE: In this period.
AB: In this period, in this city, and there was a competition with
the privates, and in a way it's remarkable that they've been able to hold
their own with what they have.
JE: Well,
I think that there's a public policy, at least up in
Albany,
that it should be more centrally accountable and controlled.
AB: Well, there's something to that I suppose.
JE: Okay, thank you very much for your time and thoughts and
disposition. See you later.
06.008.1.438
INTERVIEW WITH ALBERT H. BOWKER 9-25-86 by Julius C.C. Edelstein
NOTE:
JE:
whether CUNY
to be a university,
university wanted to be it,
university, w
you through t
the part of t
These are notes on a conversation with Bowker.
EXCESSIVE ECHO
The question
is today a university or a system, whether it was intended
and whether the people who are now part of the
and what the public expected. It'sa
hile it functions were of course immensely strengthened by
he graduate center, and other accretions and definitions on
he chancellor. But there's a strong feeling by some of the
presidents that...and by some that it's not a university but should be,
and by some t
thoughts int
AB: We
question mean
JE: We
definition of
AB: We
characterized
and so forth.
generally as
to be regarde
really presen
that's kind o
hat it's not a university and should not be. What were your
he early days?
1, I don't know really. Why don't you talk about what the
s a minute?
1,
it,
the university in the classically...in the usual
central planning as well as budgeting.
1, I guess I may not...a university is usually
by graduate work, professional work, research activities,
The community colleges are not what is ever thought of
a university, so that to some extent the City University has
das a system, it seems to me. Of course, they weren't
table to the City University in those years. Actually,
f hard to know. Is Berkeley a university or not?
JE: Berkeley is a university, yes.
AB: Well, that may be. Is the University of California a
university?
JE: No, it's a system.
AB: A system of universities.
JE: That's right. Well, you don't have to go that far. SUNY is a
system.
AB: Yes.
JE: And each one gets its budget separately, and each one is
individually accountable, and there's very little, a minimum of central
planning.
AB: I don't know that there's more or less than we have. Do you
really think so?
JE: I mean, it's in large measure the planning was done by the
budget, the State Budget Bureau, but it certainly is...
LA GUARDIA AND WAGNER ARCHIVES 06.008.1.438
AB: It drove us, too.
JE: I mean, it's a question, it's resolved itself into such
questions as does the central office have the power to reallocate
budgets?
AB: Yes, of course it has that.
JE: Well, that's a university.
AB: But it had more than at one time. Now CUNY is supposed to
have that with the new flexibility.
JE: Yes. I don't know whether they...
AB: I mean, I really guess I'd like to know what presidents who
are for and against it have in mind.
JE: I mean...
AB: I think it would be a mistake, a serious mistake to
decentralize graduate instruction any further.
JE: Yes.
AB: And there is of course still talk about that.
JE: Yes, I think that's one of the things...
AB: Larry himself is not absolutely convinced that the new
deal...I haven't mentioned this to anybody.
JE: No, this is just for my book.
AB: What?
JE: This is just for my book. Who thinks it maybe should be
decentralized, graduate work, further.
AB: Larry...
JE: Museola, the deputy.
AB: Museola. That's the Brooklyn point of view, that's what Hess
thinks.
JE: CUNY has been able to enter the ranks of recognized serious
universities, even more in some ways than SUNY, because of the graduate
center (inaudible) one of the people who who was heavily involved with
Ben Gurion University, his name is Gelber, who has among other things was
sort of chief academic officer under Johnny Toe at Stoneybrook for a long
time, also was on the review, middle states review of the University of
Maryland at Baltimore, last spring. So when I talked to him, it took us
LA GUARDIA AND WAGNER ARCHIVES 06.008.1.438
quite a while to get around to Ben Gurion, because these other topics
were more interesting, but anyway...
AB: Of course, of course.
JE: Anyway, you know, he really thinks a graduate center puts the
City University...he was saying what a genius I was, which of course I
always love to hear, but the graduate center gives some respect to it...
AB: True.
JE: The graduate center really put the City University right in
the core of major (inaudible) in this country, and made out of in some
senses what appeared to be nothing, and that's really quite an
accomplishment, and it did a lot better than I thought it would. And I
think in that sense, I think now...the question then is whether the
graduate school graduate center is an integral part of the central office
or whether it's up and running as a separate institution, and I guess in
some ways I thought it would be stronger in the future if it had some
type of identity, which is why I made (inaudible) college president, and
that institutionalized it better. On the other hand, it does appear that
it still has to be regarded as kind of a special pet of the central
administration. Joe would say it is still getting kind of preferential
treatment.
AB: What?
JE: Well, if it does.
AB: Yes.
JE: It was line allocations and every other thing.
AB: Yes.
JE: But now, for instance, if obviously the people who most
strongly think that it ought to be a system and treat it as a system are
Shalela and Hess, and...not to some extent, to a major extent by Siegel,
then the institutions that have gotten some recognition and they would
like to have more graduate work and also independent political action to
secure their budgets. But at Hunter, along with the graduate school,
they've got the best students. But that would be at the expense of the
others.
AB: Yes, and I think the main reason for existence is to put away
an in between...I mean, the main reason for existence is really not to
have people go independently politically, but to have all the
institutions go together. So recognition is...I mean, that's what a
system is for, not a university
JE: I think they would like to be university centers.
AB: Well, it seems to me that the university center concept in New
York is just so-so, that in a way it hasn't produced. I mean, it's true
LA GUARDIA AND WAGNER ARCHIVES 06.008.1.438
that Stoneybrook and Buffalo both have some elements of distinction, but
neither one is a major university center in the sense that...
JE: Stands further.
AB: Well, it wouldn't even be in the top 20 or even...they're
stronger in science in CUNY, in a way a little different, but CUNY on the
whole is a better graduate school. Unless you say science is the only
thing that matters, which is of course true.
JE: Naturally you would say that. But you're not supposed to say
that, so...but well, I mean I think there's also the fact that it
protects places like Lehman and York and other places that have problems,
having either a system or a university, that it is the concern of the
central office that these others...and certainly that would be the...if
there were a public policy on it, that would be the public policy.
AB: Sure. But I think both the system and the university concept
kind of protect them. The doctoral programs that are delegated to the
colleges, which are obvious ones I suppose...
JE: There are 2-3.
AB: What?
JE: Public administration at John Jay...
AB: Yes, it's pretty mediocre so far, no distinction.
JE: Civics at City.
AB: Well, that's really true there too. I mean, there isn't any
evidence where they'll say they don't have the money, resources, and so
forth. In order to really do one of those things well, I'm not sure they
can do any better at City. I don't know, but so far nobody's
really...what Donna wants to do, I really...she really wants to start a
whole lot of professional programs. She herself comes out of Maxwell
School, which I think is probably not as important as it was once.
JE: Yes, that's the general perception.
AB: And in general probably in the end it will yield to the
leadership of the policy oriented schools, although it hasn't happened
yet. And like the Kennedy School and the Berkeley School and the
Maryland School, for that matter, and she wants to get into big MPAs and
education degrees and so forth, and that's all mildly useful. Mildly,
but certainly no quality, no distinction. You never heard of a school
being famous because it gives an MPA. Really, I mean, they're kind of
low level things that she has in mind to do. I never really talked it
through with her. I know Joe is not very keen on it, and I don't know
whether Baruch is really making the most it can out of the opportunities
in the business community. That would be hard to say. It certainly
never did. Siegel is probably better than most people they had, although
I don't know.
LA GUARDIA AND WAGNER ARCHIVES 06.008.1.438
JE: They haven't had many. And the ones they did have were not
very good. Well, that's a good thoughtful discussion of the subject. I
think that you make a good point which I haven't really focused on. It
depends on what you mean and from what angle you come at the question.
Those who most strenuously advocated being a system means what they
really want is a virtual, free-standing independence.
AB: Yes. But a strong system wouldn't give them that. Maybe SUNY
is kind of a weak system.
JE: It is.
AB: But I'll tell you that every time we got caught operating
politically independently at the University of California, we had our
asses whipped. Of course, we all did it, but we didn't always get
caught.
JE: It all depends on how strong the California system is.
AB: Transfer.
JE: And that's true here, too. I mean, Shalela gets labeled a
lot, but if there were another chancellor and if she weren't she...
AB: Last time I talked to her about it, which may be a year or so
ago, she said that she wouldn't mind being more a member of the team in
terms of Albany, but she never really knew what the chancellor was up to.
JE: Well, that's what she said to me in my interview with her
recently, exactly what she said, almost in the same words. (inaudible)
remember her words.
AB: Yes, but I haven't really dug into it.
JE: You see, the way it affects me is when I talk about the City
University and have to look at changes that have taken place there, I
have some idea what the terms meant.
AB: You know my famous statement about long range planning, it's
easier to take a step in the right direction than to set long range goals
on where you're going.
JE: I remember the famous story of the California press.
AB: What was that about?
JE: Whenever they couldn't make a decision, then the board of the
California press, of which you were a member, you would say, now, let's
see how this relates to our long range goals. That's the end of that.
AB: Well, anyway, so that I suppose it would be fair to say that I
never put a lot of emphasis on a sharp definition of the difference
between the two, but on the whole, SUNY is regarded as a system by the
LA GUARDIA AND WAGNER ARCHIVES 06.008.1.438
academic community. But that would not preclude it having more than one
university, serious university center, but it would not be wise to have
any duplication of graduate work.
JE: (inaudible)
AB: What?
JE: In this period.
AB: In this period, in this city, and there was a competition with
the privates, and in a way it's remarkable that they've been able to hold
their own with what they have.
JE: Well,
I think that there's a public policy, at least up in
Albany,
that it should be more centrally accountable and controlled.
AB: Well, there's something to that I suppose.
JE: Okay, thank you very much for your time and thoughts and
disposition. See you later.
Title
Interview conducted by former Vice Chancellor Julius C.C. Edelstein with former CUNY Chancellor Albert Bowker
Description
In 1986 former CUNY Vice-Chancellor Julius C. C. Edelstein conducted this interview with former Chancellor Albert Bowker about Bowker's tenure as the second Chancellor of CUNY. The discussion focuses on whether CUNY is a "system" or a "university" and what significance each holds. Other topics include the role of the Graduate Center, the independence of the colleges, and positions taken by certain administrators.
Contributor
Julius C.C. Edelstein
Creator
Edelstein, Julius C.C.
Date
September 1986
Format
pdf
Language
English
Publisher
LaGuardia and Wagner Archives
Relation
18
Rights
Copyrighted
Source
LaGuardia and Wagner Archives
Original Format
Transcription
Edelstein, Julius C.C. Letter. “Interview Conducted by Former Vice Chancellor Julius C.C. Edelstein With Former CUNY Chancellor Albert Bowker”. 18, CUNY DIGITAL HISTORY ARCHIVE, accessed March 10, 2026, https://stephenz.tailc22a4b.ts.net/s/cdha/item/43